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Dec 11 16:06:34 <AccordionGuy>	I can see my house from here
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Dec 11 16:08:13 <AccordionGuy>	BTW, Joey = accordion player, Joi = venture capitalist. STOP ASKING ME FOR MONEY!
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Dec 11 16:15:17 <ethanz>	It's not just about caring, it's about identifying with people in other people and other cultures
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Dec 11 16:18:13 <Kaliya>	what about developing deeper community in 'place' and supporting americans getting out of their own malaise... suffering in teh first world is as great as that in the 3rd... it is very different in type but painful and deep... depression, suicide, over eating, bad body image, communiting for  hours a day, buying stuff so that they numb pain, going into debt, not making enough of a living to...
Dec 11 16:18:14 <Kaliya>	...begin to think about others....
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Dec 11 16:22:22 <Kaliya>	building/growing/supporting the emergence of  thrivable communities.... these become viral then we change the world
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Dec 11 16:24:15 <RMacK>	need to get people to see the world as "home". re-defining the idea of "home".
Dec 11 16:24:18 <Kaliya>	Urban tribes and the bands of cyber nomads
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Dec 11 16:28:51 <AccordionGuy>	Recommended reading: Martin Buber's essay on "I-thou" vs "I-it" relationships.
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Dec 11 16:29:04 <AccordionGuy>	http://www.angelfire.com/md2/timewarp/buber.html
Dec 11 16:29:06 <Rachel>	second that, AccordionGuy
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Dec 11 16:29:23 <Kaliya>	Since we are bringing up viruses what about Autopoesis...successful life is like this - negotiated self-intererst at all levels... (diagram in the middle of this presentation - http://www.ratical.org/LifeWeb/Articles/LSinetHF.html"
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Dec 11 16:32:11 <RMacK>	Jarvis sez: enable the people to use the tools and get them out to everybody. bring down the barriers to them: technology, tyrants, whatever.
Dec 11 16:32:29 <Kaliya>	Free culture 
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Dec 11 16:32:39 <RMacK>	Jarvis: have faith in the intrinsic good of citizens
Dec 11 16:32:57 <CraigPfeifer>	But what about the folks that don't want to participate, they just want to live their lives?
Dec 11 16:33:32 <jonl>	Then they don't participate.
Dec 11 16:33:36 <jonl>	That's always the case.
Dec 11 16:33:47 <AccordionGuy>	90% or more will always fall under that category
Dec 11 16:33:59 <AccordionGuy>	Which is why you have to "cast the net" far and wide.
Dec 11 16:34:43 <Kaliya>	the tools have politics - just like the personal is political so to the tools are political (they shape what we can do how power is shaped)
Dec 11 16:35:01 <jonl>	Kaliya: I
Dec 11 16:35:08 <jonl>	I've thought so for a long time...
Dec 11 16:35:12 <jarretthousenort>	that 90% number is the contagion rate for caring. caring only infects 1 in 10. unless it's something big that hits close to home. if you can find a way to affect the rate, you might not have to cast the net as wide
Dec 11 16:35:14 <jonl>	though some don't buy that argument.
Dec 11 16:35:25 <Kaliya>	what about these online tools having more geo-tagging and empowering local communities to really organize, to know and see themselves to self organize.
Dec 11 16:35:41 <ethanz>	Darius - Caring isn't an abstract - we need to make invisible connections visible to get people to care
Dec 11 16:35:42 <RMacK>	OSI's Darius: people don't care about others who seem abstract. only pepole who seem concrete. so you need to find ways for people to see each other as concrete, not abstract. 
Dec 11 16:35:44 *	jonl offerse to set up a wiki for manifesto collaborators, if that's helpful.
Dec 11 16:36:07 <jonl>	offers, that is.
Dec 11 16:36:15 <ethanz>	jonl - this channel was supposed to be a realtime wiki - it seems to have turned into more conventional IRC usage
Dec 11 16:36:18 <CraigPfeifer>	bingo
Dec 11 16:36:21 <Dowbrigade>	seeming concrete and being concrete are two different things
Dec 11 16:36:36 <jonl>	ethan: just figured it would be good to plant the conversation somewhere.
Dec 11 16:37:00 <CraigPfeifer>	an example: nobody cares about an atrocity until it hits cnn, then its in your living room
Dec 11 16:37:04 <RMacK>	i suggest we keep it all here until the conf is over. then maybe set up wiki later to further develop it.
Dec 11 16:37:31 <jonl>	If wiki is the best place to do the collaboration.
Dec 11 16:37:47 <jonl>	Might be something to take into omidyar.net... into Activist Technology there.
Dec 11 16:37:57 <Kaliya>	these tools shape what you can do... meetups do online to offline... so far the geeky geniuses have not been talking commmunity organizers enough  to build the 'reverse meet up'  people are already in social groups and meeting and how do we easily support them augmenting this natural community activity online.
Dec 11 16:38:29 <jonl>	Kaliya: I think people already do that to some extent.
Dec 11 16:38:35 <Kaliya>	I am not just complaining... I am working on getting this built in Civicspace but how you think about tech and its role shapes the tools.
Dec 11 16:38:37 <jonl>	But we're not good at sustaining the conversations.
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Dec 11 16:39:45 <jonl>	One problem is that powerful, robust tools are sometimes difficult for totally nontechnical users to grasp.
Dec 11 16:39:55 <jonl>	CivicSpace is actually a good example of that.
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Dec 11 16:40:49 <vaj>	we better start talking about benefits..
Dec 11 16:40:50 <JoiIto>	auto-catalytic reactions
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Dec 11 16:42:16 <Kaliya>	can the tools be catalyists... I think they can.
Dec 11 16:42:22 <Catspaw>	"When you go too far up, abstraction-wise, you run out of oxygen. Sometimes smart thinkers just don't know when to stop, and they create these absurd, all-encompassing, high-level pictures of the universe that are all good and fine, but don't actually mean anything at all." -- http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000018.html
Dec 11 16:42:27 <Kaliya>	catalysts for consiousness
Dec 11 16:42:43 <jonl>	(noosphere)
Dec 11 16:42:46 <vaj>	they are catalysts. We are about tools. 
Dec 11 16:42:53 <brittb>	Concern without action is worthless. What actions?
Dec 11 16:42:53 <brittb>	The only action we seek is the threat of votes which move budgets
Dec 11 16:44:43 <RMacK>	an extension of jeff's point about bringing the tools to ordinary people: not imposing tools or pushing tools on people that they aren't really inclined to use. so if they don't like using pc's, we need to find ways for them to blog from their phones more easily. for example. enable tool- & gadget- innovation also to be bottom-up.
Dec 11 16:44:57 <vaj>	we must be pushing "paradigm".
Dec 11 16:45:08 <JoiIto>	vaj elaborate please
Dec 11 16:45:55 <vaj>	I think tools are one and changes are another. Paradigm is what we are after.
Dec 11 16:46:25 <vaj>	Language is a virus, according to some. 
Dec 11 16:46:59 <vaj>	How does one take a message in a world globalized and fragementary?
Dec 11 16:47:23 <JoiIto>	good points... lets get to them vaj...
Dec 11 16:47:27 <vaj>	We are like a tribe with different set of tools. What is the future shock?
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Dec 11 16:47:59 <jonl>	(Babel?)
Dec 11 16:48:30 <Kaliya>	The only action we seek is the threat of votes which move budgets - response... begin to change how votes and budgets work - look at the collaborative citizen created budget  http://www.chs.ubc.ca/participatory/resources.htm
Dec 11 16:49:05 <RMacK>	Ory sez: change the definition of politics.
Dec 11 16:49:51 <RMacK>	Jim: exercise of free speech becomes the first political act.
Dec 11 16:51:11 <Kaliya>	The Tao of Demorcacy.. what is it? how is it changing and how can it change - http://www.taoofdemocracy.com/  and along with that collective intelligence  http://www.co-intelligence.org
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Dec 11 16:54:37 <vaj>	the future shock would be a kind of world we have no voice and power. It is about power. what is the message to "share and have future".  It is "peace", "home-spun", "orange"?
Dec 11 16:57:01 <Kaliya>	military men don't have communiation capacity to not have to use military vehicals to 'solve problems'.... http://www.cnvc.org
Dec 11 16:57:36 <RMacK>	john p: bloggers band together and throw issues at the media. need a strategy.
Dec 11 16:57:45 <Kaliya>	sorry that was incoherent...
Dec 11 16:58:33 <RMacK>	janice: we must all agree to help each other. maybe thru a wiki.
Dec 11 16:59:05 <RMacK>	we commit to helping each other. 
Dec 11 16:59:25 <vaj>	suppose I can put 80% of my tax to non-covert and non-predatory activities. suppose we have a system like that.
Dec 11 17:00:03 <Catspaw>	open question to individuals on the chat: what do you need?
Dec 11 17:00:03 <jonl>	(d'oh... there's already a wiki... http://www.hoder.com/wiki/index.php/Global_Voices_Participants)
Dec 11 17:00:48 <RMacK>	there's a blog too which everybody can join as authors: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/globalvoices
Dec 11 17:01:03 <jonl>	Saw that... great!
Dec 11 17:02:21 <Catspaw>	Question still open: well?  what do you need?
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Dec 11 17:04:10 <jonl>	Catspaw: need for...?
Dec 11 17:04:16 <cfarivar>	the guy who just spoke is Jeff Howe of Wired
Dec 11 17:04:20 <cfarivar>	his email is jeffhowe@wiredmag.com
Dec 11 17:04:30 <cfarivar>	he's a Contributing Editor at the Wired offices in NYC
Dec 11 17:04:52 <Catspaw>	If we want to be able to help each other's needs, we need to know what everyone else needs, to know if we can help.
Dec 11 17:05:25 <JoiIto>	fill out the wiki on hoder's site with what you want and what you are good at
Dec 11 17:05:28 <jonl>	Some of us need more people, volunteers to help get stuff done.
Dec 11 17:05:34 <jonl>	OK
Dec 11 17:05:36 <Catspaw>	too vague, jonl.
Dec 11 17:05:43 <RMacK>	free speech. defending it and extending it. and the transformative power of exercising it. that's a key part of the manifesto.
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Dec 11 17:06:25 <jonl>	Well, I have a lot of stuff going on where it would be good to have help, and I know that others do, too.
Dec 11 17:06:45 <vaj>	free responsible speech backed with an action. 
Dec 11 17:06:55 <jonl>	E.g. emerging organizations need help with business plans and entity formation.
Dec 11 17:07:03 <joho>	Alex Steffen: This group believes: 1. in extending free speech, 2. in direct connection of people across boundaries is transformative; 3. that we're planetary citizens and probably agree in 95% of the issues.
Dec 11 17:07:23 <RMacK>	alex: we've all got a common set of values. we're doing what we're doing for more than just fun.
Dec 11 17:08:51 <Kaliya>	people as strange attractors
Dec 11 17:08:52 <RMacK>	wiki. group blog. common delicious tag. mailing list.
Dec 11 17:09:01 <Kaliya>	ideas as strange attractors
Dec 11 17:09:06 <RMacK>	irc.. forgot to mention that.
Dec 11 17:09:10 <cfarivar>	lesson learned from today: everyone loves a good wiki
Dec 11 17:09:16 <jonl>	champions/leaders important.
Dec 11 17:09:25 <jonl>	Emergent leadership needs definition.
Dec 11 17:10:23 <RMacK>	need to keep the group as open as possible.
Dec 11 17:10:29 <joho>	perhaps we should have a group that works on the translation problem
Dec 11 17:10:40 <JoiIto>	perhaps you should champion it
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Dec 11 17:10:50 <RMacK>	yes we should have a translation group and somebody should be in charge of it.
Dec 11 17:10:58 <jonl>	How about conceptual/cultural translation?
Dec 11 17:11:18 <joho>	sure, as long as the words get translated, too :)
Dec 11 17:11:33 <jonl>	I just meant that the words aren't all.
Dec 11 17:11:48 <joho>	+1
Dec 11 17:11:49 <jonl>	You have to translate between the lines, too.
Dec 11 17:12:10 <Catspaw>	Does one need to skin one's blog for it to be a blog?  (ie: is CSS and HTML needed?)
Dec 11 17:12:39 <Kaliya>	work with the social power of adoption and bring these tools in communities and groups simoltaniously
Dec 11 17:12:39 <jonl>	Probably need more accessible hosted blog services.
Dec 11 17:12:44 <vaj>	blogcracy
Dec 11 17:13:25 <Kaliya>	the gap between end users... and developers... 
Dec 11 17:13:32 <Kaliya>	is not small
Dec 11 17:13:47 <jonl>	Best to have liaisons between those two groups.
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Dec 11 17:15:35 <AccordionGuy>	Come up with a name and I will use my registrar powers to give the group an URL.
Dec 11 17:15:36 <jonl>	I'm really appreciating _sj_.
Dec 11 17:15:50 <jonl>	Maybe consensus comes even later.
Dec 11 17:16:16 <Kaliya>	bridge bloggers?
Dec 11 17:16:20 <cfarivar>	where users and developers party together! ;)
Dec 11 17:16:36 <AccordionGuy>	Let me see if a bridgebloggers URL is available
Dec 11 17:16:47 <Kaliya>	the liasons... a society of 'bridge people'
Dec 11 17:16:58 <Kaliya>	I am one of them and i know a few others. there are not that many
Dec 11 17:17:04 <cfarivar>	it's available
Dec 11 17:17:18 <AccordionGuy>	.com, .net, .org are available
Dec 11 17:17:22 <Kaliya>	well there is bridges between different languages.
Dec 11 17:17:26 <Rachel>	In addition to needing more bloggers (from more countries in more languages sharing more experiences) we also need more reading-of-blogs -- how about if we begin by each committing to broaden our blogrolls/aggregators to include X number of bridgebloggers?
Dec 11 17:17:33 <Kaliya>	there are bridges between techies and end users...
Dec 11 17:17:44 <Kaliya>	both needed and different but two themes in this room.
Dec 11 17:17:48 <AccordionGuy>	I can make a number of Blogware blogs available for free
Dec 11 17:17:55 <jonl>	Another site?
Dec 11 17:18:15 <joho>	Rachel, X number of "official" bridgebloggers, or x number of bloggers from across divides?
Dec 11 17:18:22 *	jonl wondering if this wouldn't fit blogcorps?
Dec 11 17:18:31 <AccordionGuy>	I'm sure a number of TypePad blogs can also be made available for free
Dec 11 17:18:47 <Rachel>	either way, joho. point would be to ensure that we don't just add more voices, but also listen more.
Dec 11 17:18:48 <Kaliya>	like you can't just get people doing a blog... I didn't get it or do it until I had an aggregator.
Dec 11 17:18:49 <jonl>	How feasible are virtual mentoring programs?
Dec 11 17:18:54 <Kaliya>	this tool is not talked about much.
Dec 11 17:19:51 <AccordionGuy>	Tucows is working on an aggregator-meets-personal-portal page thingy. This might be useful.
Dec 11 17:19:54 <joho>	a bridgeblogger aggregator? comes with suggested (rotating?) bridgeblog feeds?
Dec 11 17:20:06 <jonl>	Cool idea.
Dec 11 17:20:22 <joho>	kalliya +1
Dec 11 17:20:30 <Kaliya>	I have been mentoring no-tech people learning about tech and starting the process of helping there be more non-techie people into being able to talk to techies
Dec 11 17:20:48 <jonl>	Joi's like the little engine that could! I think ICANN, I think ICANN... heh.
Dec 11 17:21:18 <jonl>	Better to have multiple groups networked, perhaps?
Dec 11 17:21:35 <Catspaw>	Isn't everyone on earth working on something that has something to do with each other? :)
Dec 11 17:21:45 <vaj>	how about a color?
Dec 11 17:22:05 <Rachel>	How about "Bridge bloggers" or "Global voices"?
Dec 11 17:23:14 <AccordionGuy>	wereallinthistogether.com
Dec 11 17:23:36 <joho>	naming discussions consume all others. We should either agree in 30 seconds or postpone it entirely, IMO.
Dec 11 17:25:20 <AccordionGuy>	"You're on the Global Frequency."
Dec 11 17:26:22 <Kaliya>	lets do a statement of purpose
Dec 11 17:26:34 <Kaliya>	missions are not exciting.
Dec 11 17:27:19 <jonl>	Could it be that y'all are trying to get too much done?
Dec 11 17:27:30 <jonl>	In the few minutes left?
Dec 11 17:27:47 <vaj>	refined in a few month...
Dec 11 17:27:53 <Kaliya>	btw... Jon is in austin and not sitting in the room.
Dec 11 17:27:55 <jonl>	I mean, I'm not there; I'm hearing thru backchannels that emotions are high.
Dec 11 17:27:56 <AccordionGuy>	jonl: Jesus is coming soon. Every second counts.
Dec 11 17:28:16 <jonl>	Heh... 
Dec 11 17:29:27 <AccordionGuy>	There will be a little more time for one-on-one conversations on the topic at dinner. Maybe some concrete "baby steps" can be decided upon there.
Dec 11 17:29:34 <jonl>	Well, if I was there, I might say something different, but the fact is that this is too important for hasty action, IMO.
Dec 11 17:29:34 <cfarivar>	I know someone in NYC who is from Cairo -- was for the last six years an NYT reporter there
Dec 11 17:29:56 <Kaliya>	so in this room there are people who are not on IRC and are trying to get on IRC to talk... they are not being supported to engage even with the tools in this room.... if you want to spread blogging tools other tech tools like IRC...  you have to get  real (like at this conference) and actually figure out how to share them with people what these tools are and how to use them.
Dec 11 17:30:02 <jonl>	It seems like this will be a complex set of  projects.
Dec 11 17:30:13 <AccordionGuy>	BTW, make sure you do some good deeds in your home town, even if only for practice.
Dec 11 17:32:25 <jonl>	BTW I offer profound apologies for the ICANN joke above, which was not meant to be at Joi's expense at all, since we joke around about stuff. But I didn't realize that IRC was being projected and thought playful banter would translate differently. Virtual weirdness of being remote from context doesn't help.
Dec 11 17:32:28 <vaj>	why not? you never know.  just do it. you have been talking platforms all day.
Dec 11 17:32:45 <Kaliya>	The Art of Chaordic Leadership... http://www.pfdf.org/leaderbooks/L2L/winter2000/hock.html
Dec 11 17:33:14 <jonl>	"Just do it" is good advice, and this doesn't have to be centralized or focused on a specific platform, right?
Dec 11 17:33:36 <vaj>	right
Dec 11 17:34:49 <Kaliya>	yeah rebecca... the people between technies/developers and users ... great
Dec 11 17:35:44 <RMacK>	http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/globalvoices
Dec 11 17:35:54 <jkbaumga>	http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/globalvoices/
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Dec 11 17:36:24 <jonl>	Note that Activist Technology was formed to bring activists and developers together.
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Dec 11 17:36:34 <jonl>	http://activisttech.org.
Dec 11 17:36:46 <jonl>	Sorry...
Dec 11 17:36:48 <Kaliya>	Purpose -- A clear, commonly understood statement of that which identifies and binds the community together as worthy of pursuit.  http://futurepositive.synearth.net/2002/08/22
Dec 11 17:36:53 <jonl>	http://activist-tech.org
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Dec 11 17:36:57 <jonl>	With a hyphen.
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