Dec 11 16:18:13 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] what about developing deeper community in 'place' and supporting americans getting out of their own malaise... suffering in teh first world is as great as that in the 3rd... it is very different in type but painful and deep... depression, suicide, over eating, bad body image, communiting for hours a day, buying stuff so that they numb pain, going into debt, not making enough of a living to...
Dec 11 16:18:14 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] ...begin to think about others....
Dec 11 16:22:22 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] building/growing/supporting the emergence of thrivable communities.... these become viral then we change the world
Dec 11 16:24:15 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] need to get people to see the world as "home". re-defining the idea of "home".
Dec 11 16:24:18 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] Urban tribes and the bands of cyber nomads
Dec 11 16:28:51 EST [Joey deVilla] Recommended reading: Martin Buber's essay on "I-thou" vs "I-it" relationships.
Dec 11 16:29:04 EST [Joey deVilla] http://www.angelfire.com/md2/timewarp/buber.html
Dec 11 16:29:06 EST [Rachel Barenblat] second that, Joey deVilla
Dec 11 16:29:23 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] Since we are bringing up viruses what about Autopoesis...successful life is like this - negotiated self-intererst at all levels... (diagram in the middle of this presentation - http://www.ratical.org/LifeWeb/Articles/LSinetHF.html
Dec 11 16:32:11 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] Jarvis sez: enable the people to use the tools and get them out to everybody. bring down the barriers to them: technology, tyrants, whatever.
Dec 11 16:32:29 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] Free culture
Dec 11 16:32:39 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] Jarvis: have faith in the intrinsic good of citizens
Dec 11 16:32:57 EST [CraigPfeifer] But what about the folks that don't want to participate, they just want to live their lives?
Dec 11 16:33:32 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Then they don't participate.
Dec 11 16:33:36 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] That's always the case.
Dec 11 16:33:47 EST [Joey deVilla] 90% or more will always fall under that category
Dec 11 16:33:59 EST [Joey deVilla] Which is why you have to "cast the net" far and wide.
Dec 11 16:34:43 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] the tools have politics - just like the personal is political so to the tools are political (they shape what we can do how power is shaped)
Dec 11 16:35:01 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Kaliya Hamlin: I
Dec 11 16:35:08 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] I've thought so for a long time...
Dec 11 16:35:12 EST [Tim Jarrett] that 90% number is the contagion rate for caring. caring only infects 1 in 10. unless it's something big that hits close to home. if you can find a way to affect the rate, you might not have to cast the net as wide
Dec 11 16:35:14 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] though some don't buy that argument.
Dec 11 16:35:25 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] what about these online tools having more geo-tagging and empowering local communities to really organize, to know and see themselves to self organize.
Dec 11 16:35:41 EST [Ethan Zuckerman] Darius - Caring isn't an abstract - we need to make invisible connections visible to get people to care
Dec 11 16:35:42 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] OSI's Darius: people don't care about others who seem abstract. only pepole who seem concrete. so you need to find ways for people to see each other as concrete, not abstract.
Dec 11 16:35:44 EST * Jon Lebkowsky offerse to set up a wiki for manifesto collaborators, if that's helpful.
Dec 11 16:36:07 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] offers, that is.
Dec 11 16:36:15 EST [Ethan Zuckerman] Jon Lebkowsky - this channel was supposed to be a realtime wiki - it seems to have turned into more conventional IRC usage
Dec 11 16:36:18 EST [CraigPfeifer] bingo
Dec 11 16:36:21 EST [Dowbrigade] seeming concrete and being concrete are two different things
Dec 11 16:36:36 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] ethan: just figured it would be good to plant the conversation somewhere.
Dec 11 16:37:00 EST [CraigPfeifer] an example: nobody cares about an atrocity until it hits cnn, then its in your living room
Dec 11 16:37:04 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] i suggest we keep it all here until the conf is over. then maybe set up wiki later to further develop it.
Dec 11 16:37:31 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] If wiki is the best place to do the collaboration.
Dec 11 16:37:47 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Might be something to take into omidyar.net... into Activist Technology there.
Dec 11 16:37:57 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] these tools shape what you can do... meetups do online to offline... so far the geeky geniuses have not been talking commmunity organizers enough to build the 'reverse meet up' people are already in social groups and meeting and how do we easily support them augmenting this natural community activity online.
Dec 11 16:38:29 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Kaliya Hamlin: I think people already do that to some extent.
Dec 11 16:38:35 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] I am not just complaining... I am working on getting this built in Civicspace but how you think about tech and its role shapes the tools.
Dec 11 16:38:37 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] But we're not good at sustaining the conversations.
Dec 11 16:39:45 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] One problem is that powerful, robust tools are sometimes difficult for totally nontechnical users to grasp.
Dec 11 16:39:55 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] CivicSpace is actually a good example of that.
Dec 11 16:40:49 EST [vaj] we better start talking about benefits..
Dec 11 16:40:50 EST [Joi Ito] auto-catalytic reactions
Dec 11 16:42:16 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] can the tools be catalyists... I think they can.
Dec 11 16:42:22 EST [Michelle Levesque] "When you go too far up, abstraction-wise, you run out of oxygen. Sometimes smart thinkers just don't know when to stop, and they create these absurd, all-encompassing, high-level pictures of the universe that are all good and fine, but don't actually mean anything at all." -- http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000018.html
Dec 11 16:42:27 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] catalysts for consiousness
Dec 11 16:42:43 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] (noosphere)
Dec 11 16:42:46 EST [vaj] they are catalysts. We are about tools.
Dec 11 16:42:53 EST [Britt Blaser] Concern without action is worthless. What actions?
Dec 11 16:42:53 EST [Britt Blaser] The only action we seek is the threat of votes which move budgets
Dec 11 16:44:43 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] an extension of jeff's point about bringing the tools to ordinary people: not imposing tools or pushing tools on people that they aren't really inclined to use. so if they don't like using pc's, we need to find ways for them to blog from their phones more easily. for example. enable tool- & gadget- innovation also to be bottom-up.
Dec 11 16:44:57 EST [vaj] we must be pushing "paradigm".
Dec 11 16:45:08 EST [Joi Ito] vaj elaborate please
Dec 11 16:45:55 EST [vaj] I think tools are one and changes are another. Paradigm is what we are after.
Dec 11 16:46:25 EST [vaj] Language is a virus, according to some.
Dec 11 16:46:59 EST [vaj] How does one take a message in a world globalized and fragementary?
Dec 11 16:47:23 EST [Joi Ito] good points... lets get to them vaj...
Dec 11 16:47:27 EST [vaj] We are like a tribe with different set of tools. What is the future shock?
Dec 11 16:47:59 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] (Babel?)
Dec 11 16:48:30 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] The only action we seek is the threat of votes which move budgets - response... begin to change how votes and budgets work - look at the collaborative citizen created budget http://www.chs.ubc.ca/participatory/resources.htm
Dec 11 16:49:05 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] Ory sez: change the definition of politics.
Dec 11 16:49:51 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] Jim: exercise of free speech becomes the first political act.
Dec 11 16:51:11 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] The Tao of Demorcacy.. what is it? how is it changing and how can it change - http://www.taoofdemocracy.com/ and along with that collective intelligence http://www.co-intelligence.org
Dec 11 16:54:37 EST [vaj] the future shock would be a kind of world we have no voice and power. It is about power. what is the message to "share and have future". It is "peace", "home-spun", "orange"?
Dec 11 16:57:01 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] military men don't have communiation capacity to not have to use military vehicals to 'solve problems'.... http://www.cnvc.org
Dec 11 16:57:36 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] john p: bloggers band together and throw issues at the media. need a strategy.
Dec 11 16:57:45 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] sorry that was incoherent...
Dec 11 16:58:33 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] janice: we must all agree to help each other. maybe thru a wiki.
Dec 11 16:59:05 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] we commit to helping each other.
Dec 11 16:59:25 EST [vaj] suppose I can put 80% of my tax to non-covert and non-predatory activities. suppose we have a system like that.
Dec 11 17:00:03 EST [Michelle Levesque] open question to individuals on the chat: what do you need?
Dec 11 17:00:03 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] (d'oh... there's already a wiki... http://www.hoder.com/wiki/index.php/Global_Voices_Participants)
Dec 11 17:00:48 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] there's a blog too which everybody can join as authors: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/globalvoices
Dec 11 17:01:03 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Saw that... great!
Dec 11 17:02:21 EST [Michelle Levesque] Question still open: well? what do you need?
Dec 11 17:04:10 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Michelle Levesque: need for...?
Dec 11 17:04:16 EST [Cyrus Farivar] the guy who just spoke is Jeff Howe of Wired
Dec 11 17:04:20 EST [Cyrus Farivar] his email is email@example.com
Dec 11 17:04:30 EST [Cyrus Farivar] he's a Contributing Editor at the Wired offices in NYC
Dec 11 17:04:52 EST [Michelle Levesque] If we want to be able to help each other's needs, we need to know what everyone else needs, to know if we can help.
Dec 11 17:05:25 EST [Joi Ito] fill out the wiki on hoder's site with what you want and what you are good at
Dec 11 17:05:28 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Some of us need more people, volunteers to help get stuff done.
Dec 11 17:05:34 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] OK
Dec 11 17:05:36 EST [Michelle Levesque] too vague, Jon Lebkowsky.
Dec 11 17:05:43 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] free speech. defending it and extending it. and the transformative power of exercising it. that's a key part of the manifesto.
Dec 11 17:06:25 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Well, I have a lot of stuff going on where it would be good to have help, and I know that others do, too.
Dec 11 17:06:45 EST [vaj] free responsible speech backed with an action.
Dec 11 17:06:55 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] E.g. emerging organizations need help with business plans and entity formation.
Dec 11 17:07:03 EST [David Weinberger] Alex Steffen: This group believes: 1. in extending free speech, 2. in direct connection of people across boundaries is transformative; 3. that we're planetary citizens and probably agree in 95% of the issues.
Dec 11 17:07:23 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] alex: we've all got a common set of values. we're doing what we're doing for more than just fun.
Dec 11 17:08:51 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] people as strange attractors
Dec 11 17:08:52 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] wiki. group blog. common delicious tag. mailing list.
Dec 11 17:09:01 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] ideas as strange attractors
Dec 11 17:09:06 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] irc.. forgot to mention that.
Dec 11 17:09:10 EST [Cyrus Farivar] lesson learned from today: everyone loves a good wiki
Dec 11 17:09:16 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] champions/leaders important.
Dec 11 17:09:25 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Emergent leadership needs definition.
Dec 11 17:10:23 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] need to keep the group as open as possible.
Dec 11 17:10:29 EST [David Weinberger] perhaps we should have a group that works on the translation problem
Dec 11 17:10:40 EST [Joi Ito] perhaps you should champion it
Dec 11 17:10:50 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] yes we should have a translation group and somebody should be in charge of it.
Dec 11 17:10:58 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] How about conceptual/cultural translation?
Dec 11 17:11:18 EST [David Weinberger] sure, as long as the words get translated, too :)
Dec 11 17:11:33 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] I just meant that the words aren't all.
Dec 11 17:11:48 EST [David Weinberger] +1
Dec 11 17:11:49 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] You have to translate between the lines, too.
Dec 11 17:12:10 EST [Michelle Levesque] Does one need to skin one's blog for it to be a blog? (ie: is CSS and HTML needed?)
Dec 11 17:12:39 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] work with the social power of adoption and bring these tools in communities and groups simoltaniously
Dec 11 17:12:39 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Probably need more accessible hosted blog services.
Dec 11 17:12:44 EST [vaj] blogcracy
Dec 11 17:13:25 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] the gap between end users... and developers...
Dec 11 17:13:32 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] is not small
Dec 11 17:13:47 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Best to have liaisons between those two groups.
Dec 11 17:15:35 EST [Joey deVilla] Come up with a name and I will use my registrar powers to give the group an URL.
Dec 11 17:15:36 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] I'm really appreciating _sj_.
Dec 11 17:15:50 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Maybe consensus comes even later.
Dec 11 17:16:16 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] bridge bloggers?
Dec 11 17:16:20 EST [Cyrus Farivar] where users and developers party together! ;)
Dec 11 17:16:36 EST [Joey deVilla] Let me see if a bridgebloggers URL is available
Dec 11 17:16:47 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] the liasons... a society of 'bridge people'
Dec 11 17:16:58 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] I am one of them and i know a few others. there are not that many
Dec 11 17:17:04 EST [Cyrus Farivar] it's available
Dec 11 17:17:18 EST [Joey deVilla] .com, .net, .org are available
Dec 11 17:17:22 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] well there is bridges between different languages.
Dec 11 17:17:26 EST [Rachel Barenblat] In addition to needing more bloggers (from more countries in more languages sharing more experiences) we also need more reading-of-blogs -- how about if we begin by each committing to broaden our blogrolls/aggregators to include X number of bridgebloggers?
Dec 11 17:17:33 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] there are bridges between techies and end users...
Dec 11 17:17:44 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] both needed and different but two themes in this room.
Dec 11 17:17:48 EST [Joey deVilla] I can make a number of Blogware blogs available for free
Dec 11 17:17:55 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Another site?
Dec 11 17:18:15 EST [David Weinberger] Rachel Barenblat, X number of "official" bridgebloggers, or x number of bloggers from across divides?
Dec 11 17:18:22 EST * Jon Lebkowsky wondering if this wouldn't fit blogcorps?
Dec 11 17:18:31 EST [Joey deVilla] I'm sure a number of TypePad blogs can also be made available for free
Dec 11 17:18:47 EST [Rachel Barenblat] either way, David Weinberger. point would be to ensure that we don't just add more voices, but also listen more.
Dec 11 17:18:48 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] like you can't just get people doing a blog... I didn't get it or do it until I had an aggregator.
Dec 11 17:18:49 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] How feasible are virtual mentoring programs?
Dec 11 17:18:54 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] this tool is not talked about much.
Dec 11 17:19:51 EST [Joey deVilla] Tucows is working on an aggregator-meets-personal-portal page thingy. This might be useful.
Dec 11 17:19:54 EST [David Weinberger] a bridgeblogger aggregator? comes with suggested (rotating?) bridgeblog feeds?
Dec 11 17:20:06 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Cool idea.
Dec 11 17:20:22 EST [David Weinberger] kalliya +1
Dec 11 17:20:30 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] I have been mentoring no-tech people learning about tech and starting the process of helping there be more non-techie people into being able to talk to techies
Dec 11 17:21:18 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Better to have multiple groups networked, perhaps?
Dec 11 17:21:35 EST [Michelle Levesque] Isn't everyone on earth working on something that has something to do with each other? :)
Dec 11 17:21:45 EST [vaj] how about a color?
Dec 11 17:22:05 EST [Rachel Barenblat] How about "Bridge bloggers" or "Global voices"?
Dec 11 17:23:14 EST [Joey deVilla] wereallinthistogether.com
Dec 11 17:23:36 EST [David Weinberger] naming discussions consume all others. We should either agree in 30 seconds or postpone it entirely, IMO.
Dec 11 17:25:20 EST [Joey deVilla] "You're on the Global Frequency."
Dec 11 17:26:22 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] lets do a statement of purpose
Dec 11 17:26:34 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] missions are not exciting.
Dec 11 17:27:19 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Could it be that y'all are trying to get too much done?
Dec 11 17:27:30 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] In the few minutes left?
Dec 11 17:27:47 EST [vaj] refined in a few month...
Dec 11 17:27:53 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] btw... Jon is in austin and not sitting in the room.
Dec 11 17:27:55 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] I mean, I'm not there; I'm hearing thru backchannels that emotions are high.
Dec 11 17:27:56 EST [Joey deVilla] Jon Lebkowsky: Jesus is coming soon. Every second counts.
Dec 11 17:28:16 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Heh...
Dec 11 17:29:27 EST [Joey deVilla] There will be a little more time for one-on-one conversations on the topic at dinner. Maybe some concrete "baby steps" can be decided upon there.
Dec 11 17:29:34 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Well, if I was there, I might say something different, but the fact is that this is too important for hasty action, IMO.
Dec 11 17:29:34 EST [Cyrus Farivar] I know someone in NYC who is from Cairo -- was for the last six years an NYT reporter there
Dec 11 17:29:56 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] so in this room there are people who are not on IRC and are trying to get on IRC to talk... they are not being supported to engage even with the tools in this room.... if you want to spread blogging tools other tech tools like IRC... you have to get real (like at this conference) and actually figure out how to share them with people what these tools are and how to use them.
Dec 11 17:30:02 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] It seems like this will be a complex set of projects.
Dec 11 17:30:13 EST [Joey deVilla] BTW, make sure you do some good deeds in your home town, even if only for practice.
Dec 11 17:32:28 EST [vaj] why not? you never know. just do it. you have been talking platforms all day.
Dec 11 17:32:45 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] The Art of Chaordic Leadership... http://www.pfdf.org/leaderbooks/L2L/winter2000/hock.html
Dec 11 17:33:14 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] "Just do it" is good advice, and this doesn't have to be centralized or focused on a specific platform, right?
Dec 11 17:33:36 EST [vaj] right
Dec 11 17:34:49 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] yeah rebecca... the people between technies/developers and users ... great
Dec 11 17:35:44 EST [Rebecca MacKinnon] http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/globalvoices
Dec 11 17:35:54 EST [j Baumgart] http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/globalvoices/
Dec 11 17:36:24 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Note that Activist Technology was formed to bring activists and developers together.
Dec 11 17:36:34 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] http://activisttech.org.
Dec 11 17:36:46 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] Sorry...
Dec 11 17:36:48 EST [Kaliya Hamlin] Purpose -- A clear, commonly understood statement of that which identifies and binds the community together as worthy of pursuit. http://futurepositive.synearth.net/2002/08/22
Dec 11 17:36:53 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] http://activist-tech.org
Dec 11 17:36:57 EST [Jon Lebkowsky] With a hyphen.
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