Just a quick note before I hit the sack tonight: I recall your post the day after the US elections, bringing up the subject of Collective Responsibility - how every citizen must take responsibility and acknowledge the actions and policies of his country in the past and present. I think that's basically what the Chinese are looking for - a frank acknowledgment by Japan of its war crimes. They aren't going about it the right way though....violent protests will only elicit a knee-jerk reaction from the Japanese, which will be one of defending their stance.

There might be a parallel worth drawing here between how Japan has handled its WW2 history and how the germans have handled theirs.

Nev said..
>I think that's basically what the Chinese are looking for -
>a frank acknowledgment by Japan of its war crimes.
The interesting thing is often people who defend Japan's position will say "Japan *has* apologized, how many times must we apologize?" Does anyone know in what official capacity Japan has apologized? Not including the massive ODA. Obviously they were less than sincere apologies given the current state of textbooks in Japan, at least that's how Chinese see it.

Well I would try not to forget how in the background this issue is really sadly politicized. An example of this is that the PRC covered up the Nanjing atrocity for many years because they wanted to downplay the influence the Guo Ming Dan (who defended Nanjing) had in the past. This is something almost no mainland Chinese people know.

But you know, it's politicized in a weird way, from on high. It's amazing how all the citizenry in China, it seems despite income level, know and care about this issue. But I can't shake the feeling that the sad things that happened to China is now being used as a political bargaining chip...I'm not sure what for though, either just to gain more general political hand, or maybe to ensure Japan's ODA to China doesn't dry up.

Japan needs to call China's bluff. China's government's playing their people to get the most impact, supporting their demonstrations and using it to their advantage. There's no way that country capable murdering so many of their own people in Tiananmen Square can't stop a protest of just a few thousand people. There's no doubt that the Japanese textbooks are myopic but the chinese response is childish and manipulative.

It's also ironic that a totalitarian Chinese government is ridiculing Japan's educational materials. I'm sure that Chinese materials put out by the communist party are completely historically objective.

Japan should join the US and refuse to pay her UN dues in protest for not protecting their embassies and consulates. Those two countries could force the hand of the body. Japan should then call in any loans or other funds earmarked for china and ship them (and the SDF) off to Sudan or to fight AIDS--showing real international leadership instead of just following others with a checkbook like she often does.

And if they really wanted to get results, recognize the legitimate democracy in Taiwan.

Or, maybe they could just respond with a proverbial olive branch donate a boatload of Mountain Cedar trees to the reforestation effort in China :)

You've made some extremely good points.

The problem I think we have are two big & powerful nations with matching egos and some unfortunate history between them.

Japan might need to revamp their educational syllabus but China needs to engage the Japanese rather than take such a hard position. Generate goodwill and build long term relationship and better understanding will occur between the two people.

Visiting Singapore these last few days has given me some interesting perspective on this issue.

Put simply, this is a major PR coup for the Chinese government. For very little, they have managed to boost national image, local support for government, embarrass a troublesome trade partner, and draw attention away from various domestic problems. And Japan seems to be doing everything in it's power to help thhem accomplish this.

The international press is full of stories of demonstrations in China and damage to Japanese businesses and govenrment offices. While the stories always make the Japanese out to be the victims here, they can not help but explain why the Japanese are being targeted. Right wing organizations and an extrememly conservative govenrment approved some questionable textbooks for school. What sounds scarier, some rioters smashing windows and Toyotas or the fact that one of the largest economies in the world is being controlled by right wing conservatives who *might* be interested in reviving the good ol days of Japanese impperialism. Noo matter how you write it, the "victims" look less sympathetic than the hooligans.

On the other side, you have the Chinese govenrment. How many people who remember the demonstrations in Tiananman in the 90's are keen to tell the Chinese leadership to tone down "free speech"? Provided the government can excert enough control to make sure that human casualties are avoided, the more press these demonstrations draw, the more moderate the current leadership looks to the world.

At this rate, Japan's Security Council seat bid is pretty much squashed for years. China can put the thumbscrews into Japanese trade negotiators trying to open the Chinese market, the rest of Asia sees a more democratic "big brother" in China and Japan looks more like a beligerant, stubborn relic trying to relive the past.

This isn't a battle over the ideas and relics of the past. It's a PR war being waged for the future dominance of Asia. And so far the Japanese leadership has done nothing but provide extra ammunition for the other side to use.

Nev: Yes. I think the Japanese can learn a bit from the German response after the war. There are a few differences. The Japanese never had battle (other than bombs) on their soil and didn't see war up close. They didn't see the horror, although they did suffer. Also, as I pointed out above, many Japanese don't feel that they supported or even elected the people who ran the war. Although Nazi Germany was not a good democracy, in a way, I think people felt responsible for having elected Hitler. Finally, I think with Germany sharing borders and more physical proximity, it might have encouraged Germany to reach out more than the Japanese have.

With respect to apologies... I know the Japanese have apologized but I do not know the details. It might be interesting to do a bit of investigation on what, how and when the Japanese apologized about. I will note that Japanese companies have pushed for further apologies and it is typically the Government which tends not to want to apologize.

Nev: And yes. I agree with you. Japanese need to take collective responsibility. I feel the responsibility. I was pointing out in my post the way many Japanese feel and why. I don't believe that this passive view is necessarily politically appropriate.

As a lot of people saying, anti-Japan activities or protests has been driven by Chinese government itself because they can distract public eyes from domestic issues such as jobless problems.
Textbook, yasukuni stuff or whatever a just a part of probems. There is another big reason why they have to go freaky protests. Real problem is often covered by easily bashing stuff.
So, it is just my guess but Chinese protesters wouldn't quit protesting however all textbooks are revised as they want. They will pick something else up to complain and will throw eggs and tomatoes anyway. Until the real problem resolved, same thing will keep happening.
I heard Opium War is not taught in UK. I am not sure if it is true or false but, if it's true, why don't Chinese protest against UK? Why anti-Japan only?

Chinese government, actually current Hu Jintao cabinet, is very afraiding if those protesters would turn to be antigovernment activities. That's one of biggest reasons why they can not take action against protesters. For protesters, anything can be a target to offend. So far, Japan is their main target though, nobody knows when it turn to be something else.

In my estimation, these anti-Japan actions are just a different for m of anti-Hu Jintao cabinet. Japan may better to keep supporting Hu Jintao cabinet. Should not accept too much anti-Japan protests nor anti Chinese government protests in China either.

And what non-politician can do with it is having relationship in cultural scene. As we are already doing with Korea. It doesn't solve political issues but it helps soothing people's mind and realising that they are just also human beings.

Two quick things I'd like to note:

1. Chinese have almost no understanding of the modern Japanese psyche. They want to think those guys across the pond have some connection to those who did the bad deeds in WWII, but unfortunately, to the average Japanese that's just ancient history.

2. To say that Japanese should apologize for WWII implies something, doesn't it? It implies that they were wrong to go along with the Emperor and building the Empire, and therefore implies that they should have stood up and fought against their own government for some sense of moral right. If you understand Japanese culture even a little bit, you understand what an incredible mental leap it is to suggest not going along with their nation, government, and Emperor, no matter how 'wrong' they seemed to be... Japanese, as you said, Joi, felt this was not an option culturally or practically, and so all they can do (for the most part) is apologize out of pity rather than out of guilt.

I find myself responding in an irrational manner when I consider the Chinese protests against Japan. Mostly, I'm angry at the Chinese. That's strange, since I have no stake in the matter whatsoever. Except, of course, that Japan happens to be one of my country's most friendly and important allies.

In my gut, I suspect that the Chinese are looking for an excuse to be indignant. We are coming up on a century now since the Japanese violated China's shores, for chrissake. Those Chinese who protest most loudly, I suspect, are not deep thinkers.

The scenario is tragic and sad, in a way. Japan and China are like two lovers that cannot resist the temptation to lash out in times of crisis by opening old wounds. What bothers me most, is that Chinese folk seem to be indulging in the idea that they are in a position to push others around. First Taiwan. Then Japan. Better watch it... no joke.

First a link, cause some of you wondered if, when and how Japan apologized to its neighbors. It’s a post by ESWN about the schoolbook issue. Chronology of apologies and compensation-payment is at the bottom of the page:
http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20050328_2.htm

Now, when it comes to comparing German and Japan during WW II. I don’t think the big difference is that Japanese never experienced fights on their soil. What is remembered in Germany very lively are not the fights at the end of the war, but the bombings of the cities and that happened in Japan too. I think the big difference is the Holocaust and the impact it had on the whole western world and culture. In the West Holocaust became the synonym for the evil itself and there was a lot of pressure from the outside world, but also from inside Germany - especially after the 60es - on the government and those who are responsible for the education to deal with it. What Japanese soldiers did on the other hand where war crimes, though terrible, “only” war crimes, like they happened in human history before.

Trevor -

I agree with your point numbered one. Strangely, I know many third or even fourth generation Chinese *Americans* who actually hold WWII grudges against the Japanese. Their grandparents drill it into them.

i have recently lived in jeju-do south korea where there is still angry feelings towards the japanese mostly by the elders, yet the korean youth embrace much of japan's culture thru j-pop and amongst the japanese youth there is a passion for korean soap operas. youth culture appears to be the ambassador for peace between these 2 asian countries who share an ugly past. the chinese youth seem to be bitter and reluctant to participate in modern cultural integration...they believe themselves to be above this!

The BBC reports only 18 schools will use the textbook, as most of the others rejected it as too biased. I think the others amount to 42,000 schools.

Oops. 18 of 11,000.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050414/ap_on_re_as/japan_tempest_in_a_text

I don't think you miss anything, and I think you make a number of good points. Having said that, I don't think the Chinese protests are solely about Chinese/Japanese relations (now or in the past). These protests have been getting bigger, and they have been either backed by the government or allowed by the government - and the latter is interesting. Have a look here:

http://www.strategypage.com//fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=CHINA.HTM

There's a real possibility that the Chinese government finds anger at Japan (and Taiwan) to be a convenient way to let people blow off steam.

This is a complex issue and, as with other governmental posturing in East Asia, is usually linked to something else.

Japan is currently trying to get a permanent seat on the UN Security Council and opposition of any current member - including China - would derail that.

Recently China has tied the two together and indicated that it won't support the bid unless Japan makes clear its regret over its wartime past.

As for Japan's apologies ... Murayama's was viewed as a personal apology because he said "I" rather than "we." We can argue forever about whether that was a slip of the tongue or something more calculated but the fact is he never repeated the apology using "we" even though he was well aware of the way it had been taken.

A few years later Obuchi repeated the apology but only verbally and wouldn't include it in a communique at the end of an official visit to Japan by China's Jiang.

I fail to see how anyone can take these apologies seriously and as coming from the Japanese government when they fail to clear up possibly unclear language and won't commit them to paper.

NoSpamPlease! wrote @17:
I fail to see how anyone can take these apologies seriously

Methinks the original Japanese text of these apologies — instead of the possibly distorted foreign language translations of them — leaves no doubt as to their seriousness. The problem is, who actually reads them outside Japan ?

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/日本の戦争謝罪発言一覧

http://www.cass.net.cn/chinese/s30_rbs/files/xszl/rbr.htm

these chinese protesters seem very well organized, i wonder who is finacing them. is the real issue the chinese government not wanting a japanese security council seat at the UN?

just to clarify the above, almost every new japanese history textbook has generated an official protest from the chinese government, followed by another apology from the japanese government. all of this gets very little international media coverage. these "popular" protest movements make good tv, and have been on the evening news now for days. prior to this, when was the last time we saw a "popular" chinese protest movement on CNN?

"Noo matter how you write it, the "victims" look less sympathetic than the hooligans." Wow. A voice from within the moral abyss.
Kakyou, your analysis ignores one other player here: the US. The real question is going to be, given China's adamant position on Japan joining the Council, what the US response will be. If Japan presses her case, the US will have to decide where to throw her chips, and the US is determined to get Japan on the security council, the Chinese are going to lose this chicken race. It all depends on the commitment of the US.

As a resident of the nation that, ahem, "removed the native American threat" I feel that I am in a poor position to lecture Japan about past crimes along these lines. Perhaps the Chinese protestors should gaze in the direction of Tibet for a while before returning to their righteous rage against Japan. The closer you really get to history, the cloudier the moral story becomes. As H. I. said in Raising Arizona: "Now, y'all without sin can cast the first stone..."

Above all, this is grand political theater designed to serve the interests of one particular actor, the Chinese state.

it should be noted that the intervention of the western powers during the colonial period bears responsibility for the actions of Japan during that period. History books (American history books) state clearly that for thousands of years the asian nations lived in harmony. It was only until the period of western expansion that the two came into conflict. The western nations, the history books say, were something of a "bad influence" on Japan.

The period of which the Chinese protesters complain was really only a brief one, which occured a relatively short time ago. These "historical tensions" are only a blip in the long history of peace between the asian neighbors.

George.

I see that you're a product of the Berkeley, California public school system. Me too, but I recovered.

Joi,

Thank you for a very balanced and informative article. I first heard about the present conflict while chatting online with a friend of mine who is Brazilian of Japanese descent. She is studying in Japan currently, and brought me up to speed on the issues. Your post clarified for me Japanese thinking on the subject.

Thanks

Are there any movies that document the Japanese occupation of China? Until recently, I grew up ignorant of the details of this history of Japan. It seems that US history books tend to downplay the significance of this event as well.

I agree with Joi here on the education aspect. We should all learn about indecent moments of history so it is not repeated. However, I do think that the Chinese need to get over it. The current Japanese population has nothing to do with the crimes of the past, and I doubt they would have condoned that behavior.

In my travels to Japan, I admired the non-violent attitude and public safety compared to the United States. A major cultural difference I noticed is that Japanese television contains very little violence, whereas popular US television is loaded with programs about murder and death (CSI, Law & Order, 24, etc.) It seems to me that Japan has learned from their mistakes and has taken a new road towards becoming a more friendly society.

Anyhow, I think the Chinese should take a note from other countries that have forgiven Japan for the atrocities they committed in WWII. It is the past and continuing the hate will only result in future cycles of violence.

Josh -

It's by no means a documentary or historical record, but an excellent film nonetheless. Empire of the Sun tells the tale of a young English boy (Christian Bale) who struggles to survive under the Japanese occupation of fallen China during World War II

Josh,

I agreed that nowaday's Japanese people are amongst the most polite and friendly people in the world. The current Japanese population truly has nothing to do with the crimes of the past. However, speaking for the chinese, the protest is against the Japanese government, not the people. The Chinese people/victims do not think that Japanese government has sincerely repent for their wartime wrongs throughtout the years.

The many visits to the Yasukuni shrine to Japan's war dead by Japanese Prime minister has triggered the bad memories for the Chinese. Those Japan's war dead are the soldiers that kill the Chinese 50 years ago. I think they have to stop visiting the Yasukuni shrine and be sincerely apologize for the wartime wrongs in the past. If Pope John Paul II can apologize for the church's wrongs in the past, why can't the Japanese government do the same?

In fact, I think the main issue is incorrectness in Japanese history textbook. If history is not taught correctly in school, how can the next generation learned from the mistakes in the past?

Please look at the big picture of the whole issue.

I'm not too familiar with the political strategies etc that have been employed by both the Japanese and Chinese governments in terms of handling this issue. Although I do believe that the politics played the major role in this whole problem, I also believe that the inherent negative emotions of the public in China, Korea and other Asian countries should not be ignored when considering this. I'm originally from Korea (now living in Australia) and my grand parents had to live through one of the most horrifying periods of Korean history. Even though they are no longer with us (well, apart from my dad's mother) when I think just how hard it must have been for them, I can't help but to feel extremely sad and angry.

Paying "visists of respect" to Yasukuni and playing with words (or even completely denying) in textbooks to cover up that period, without a doubt, are wrong acts. Japan has no excuse for that, and people in Japan should feel ashamed that their government's displaying dispeakable behaviours. Whether they like it or not, it's their national history and their modern culture exists on the basis of that.

I really like Japan. I'm extremely interested in Japanese culture, whether it be modern or traditional. And I think it's fantastic how the relationship between the Japanese and Koreans have been improving dramatically through pop-cultural exchange.

I'm not from China and I only have a pretty limited understanding in Chinese culture, particularly that of the modern days, so I can only speak from my Korean point of view - but as much as this issue is political, it is also cultural and even personal to a certain extent, to the Korean people. We know (well, at least we feel) that we don't hold a "strong global status" and feel that our voices are not being heard by the rest of the world. The majority of those Korean grandmas who were used as sex slaves during the war have not been compensated for what they had to suffer. Can you even imagine what it would've been like? Getting raped all day everyday. And can you imagine what it'd be like to be forced to change your name to Japanese (therefore deny your heritage) and forced to completely ignore and "trash" your own culture? That was what happened and that scar is not going to go away easily. Unfortunately this is the truth at least in Korea. This is why, I believe, many people in China and Korea are willing to participate in extreme actions. They want to be heard. They want to be heard by the world and they want to be heard by today's Japan.

Yes, definitely. The violent action taken by certain groups of Chinese public was wrong, and the Chinese government should've shown more initiative to prevent such terriblly violent actions/outcomes. I'm completely against it. There is no excuse. However, I do empathise with them. As a person of the Korean origin, I can understand why they wanted to take such actions in the first place. And I hope the world can feel, or at least "see" this issue from the Chinese/Korean perspectives as well.

As a peace-loving Chinese who's not usually interested in politics. I too, wish there's something we could do to stop the hatred and the violence. We have to respect the fact that the Japanese government does not always represent the wish of its people. At the same time, it is just too simplistic to call the protests a "political showdown", and doubt the real motivation of the protesters, which, first and foremost, is to prevent the Japanese government from entering the UN Security Council.

The Japanese invasion of China during WWII is unlike any other modern warfare in terms of violence and violation of international protocols. I was greatly disturbed to see the extremist opinions, overturned cars, smashed windows from anti-Japanese protests, but that was nothing compared to the anguish reading about the rape of Nanking and other historical records of the war itself. What would the Chinese people feel, when not only some of the war criminals are still unpunished, but the dead ones are also being honored at the shrines? Now it's not like anybody (especially the US government) cares about Security Council voting any more, but with all the questions unresolved, to consider Japan for a Security Council member still could be the ultimate insult to the Chinese people who lost their lives during the war.

Sadly enough, the more time I spent reading about the protests and related history, the more my opinion is influenced by my own biased emotions. This is how hatred and anger spread more readily than love and peace. I just hope people from the "other countries" can understand our frustration, the debt of war is indeed a neverending vicious circle.

Would it be something to note that at least, the official reaction from the Chinese government is still advocating "peace and friendship"?

　伊藤さん、はじめまして。私は上海に住む日本人です。例の暴力デモをこの目で見ました。このページは、私がよく読む中国語のブログとリンクされており、存在を知りました。以下はその彼に宛てた中国語の文面です。もし必要でしたら、和訳をつくりますので、おっしゃってください。

Issac, Ni不能逃避中国媒体就這件事情完全忽視了事実,如Ni想指出日本人或日本社会是怎麼様,Ni必須要談到中国媒体和Ni們的言論被封閉的情况,要麼太不公平了.
我認為最近在中国発生的一系列的暴力游行事件根源于中国人民在過去受到的很深的痛苦.当然一个是大日本帝国対无辜之民進行了大量屠殺,ling一个是从大躍進運動到文革的時代,那時候是中国人互相傷害的,結果莫大的人民死亡了.
最重要的是這両个事情有密切的関系,可如果Ni在這方面深入研究的話,応該面対有些政治団体的創立神話,這様的行為在大陸太危険了...我相信Ni会明白我的意思.
在這様的限制下,在中国人的集体意識上為保護自己只有最強烈的感情,就是報讐的観念通過了几次的濃縮留下来了.人突然得到自由的時候,這様的報讐的欲望是很不容易控制的.而且現在的年軽人,不管他是日本人還是中国人缺乏真正的歴史意識,結果我們不得不看到暴力的笑劇,是用SONY録像機来拍《抵抗日貨》的游行，za毀中国人営業的日本餐館的様子.
反思歴史，説起来很簡単，做起来就難。

Most of the valid points have already been covered. I'm one who thinks that this is all about the CCP making a power play PR move and using its own people as tools. As for the politicians themselves, this looks mostly like a case of "pot meet kettle", with the noted exception that at least one side has provided 17 official appologies over the years for acts of conquest while the other continues to deny its acts of agression.

As to the horrors of WWII, sure bad things happened, just like every other war everwhere at any time in history. East Asian has not always been at peace with itself and the 1930s werent even the first time Japan tried to conquer the Korean pinensula with the hopes of eventually conquering China. Granted the last time was hundreds of years ago, and before that the mongols tried to invade Japan, etc. etc. etc. Killing civilians in war isnt new, nor is organized prostitution as part of the "military industrial complex". Wiping out entire villages or towns goes as far back as war itself, and biowar has been traced back officially to the period of Brittish colonization of North America, although the Roman (and possibly Mongol) tradition of poisioning wells in conquered territory by dumping animal carcases in them, may also be considered biowar. There is a story about how during one of Hideyoshi's invasions of Korea, a high ranking official prostitute killed one of the Japanese generals by seducing him on a high balcony then pushing him over to his death. IIRC she is regarded as a war hero to this day (by Koreans of course).

My point with all this? Its really childish to point fingers and try and extort others over history without knowing history itself.

i have translated a large part of your writing into chinese and posted it to an alternative media in hong kong: http://www.inmediahk.net/public/article?item_id=26210&group_id=28

hope it can spread to chinese internet community and people can start to think the significance of border crossing people alliance.

Chris [32]: Of course pointing fingers is childish. But that doesn't mean that a condemnation should not be made for an instance of a crime - even though there may have been other instances of it by other perpetrators in the past. To take the stance of "Look, don't point at me. They did it too!" is merely another form of finger pointing. The emphasis, imho, should be on taking our lessons from history to develop a more informed and higher consciousness. China's tantrums for an apology will not heal anything - in fact, maybe they even derive a sense of self from the incident. Japan's defensive stand will also not get us anywhere.

We can only hope that they - and the rest of the us - can look at history and be aghast at what we (as a species) descended to on these occasions, and use that as a stepping stone to a more civilized way of life.

Chris_B, it would be greatly appreciated if you could get your facts straight. I'm sure you understand that geisha doesn't mean a prostitute. The woman (who is regarded as a hero by Koreans.. of course) was "Giseng." You probably don't know anything about this, but her role as "giseng" was in providing entertainment (like geisha), not prostitution.

My mistake there. There were a certain class of "gisengs" who worked as official prostitutes. However, she was a wife of an army official. The man commited suicide as the result of his army's loss in a battle with the Japanese, so the woman (Non-ge) disguised herself as one of the "prostitute class giseng" in order to kill the head of the Japanese army. Once they lost the head, the Japanese were easily defeated, and ran back to their own country. And seriously, do you think you can compare the story of a woman who killed the head army official to save her country with the story of the sex-slaves and dispeakable cruelty during the war?

and i forgot to mention that she didn't "push him over to his death." she "jumped off the balcony into the river with him - into their deaths."

jaz: Thanks for the correction on the woman. I did not mean to make light of the sufferring of the women forced into prostitution, nor to support any military's use of said practice. I see now that the annecdote was not a good one to support my point that the use of organized (often forced) prostitution to service an invading army is not isolated to the Imperial Army's activities in East Asia in the 1930s. As far as I know the practice has been historically more common in non Christian nations historically.
There is alot of context around the practice, none of which can be said to support it according to 21st century morals, to wit:

Chris_B: yeah, I understand. Sorry, I think I got too carried away with the whole Non-ge's story. As a Korean woman, I feel quite sensitive about this issue. Thank you for your thoughtful response! :)

jaz: no hard feelings! And after all, that woman was indeed a national heroine.

The Chinese leaders are apparently miffed at the US-Japan joint communiqué labeling China as a growing menace to regional peace and stability, i.e., the Taiwan issue.

Japan needs a domestically controlled nuclear armed deterrence w/global reach, thereby ensuring China's, and other nations, good will towards it. That so called 'Nuclear Umbrella' provided & controlled by the Zionist/JUDEO-Christian occupied US government is full of holes.

This from Sun Tzu's 'Art of War':

"If I am able to determine the enemy's dispositions while, at the
same time, I conceal my own, then I can concentrate my forces and his
must be divided. And if I concentrate while he divides, I can use my
entire strength to attack a fraction of his. Therefore, I will be
numerically superior. Then, if I am able to use many to strike few at
the selected point, those I deal with will fall into hopeless straits.
The enemy must not know where I intend to give battle. For if he does
not know where I intend to give battle, he must prepare in a great many
places. And when he prepares in a great many places, those I have to
fight in will be few. For if he prepares to the front, his rear will be
weak, and if to the rear, his front will be fragile. If he strengthens
his left, his right will be vulnerable, and if his right, there will be
few troops on his left. And when he sends troops everywhere, he will be
weak everywhere. Numerical weakness comes from having to guard against
possible attacks; numerical strength from forcing the enemy to make
these preparations against us."

The Chinese are employing a diversionary maneuver, attacking Japan's weak battlefield positions, i.e., alleged wartime atrocities, and text books, as a defensive measure to any Taiwan sovereignty initiatives.

Well,we are all human,not Man of God,and we all get our brain turned easily.

Take me as an example,my great grand father and great grand mother were killed in Nanjing massacre in WWII,my grand father luckly survived,but he had to sold himself to the rich as knd of slave in orther to feed himself.
If anyone had such a family history,and heard that Japanese said it to be just a "nanjing affair",I think joining an anti-Japan protest is one of the most reasonable thing in the world.And what`s more ,my case is not the minorty in China.

I knows many People in Japan also had their closest relatves killed in that war,but i have to say,they are not victim of the mlitary.They might be innocent individualy,but guilty as a group.

oops,I definitely missed my point.And i think i should say,no one could make any changes in Japan if Japanese did`nt do any thing at all.We just express our anger against Japan`s denial on history and attemp to enter the S.C. before a complete penitence like Germans did.

Well,we are all human,not Man of God,and we all get our brain turned easily.

Take me as an example,my great grand father and great grand mother were killed in Nanjing massacre in WWII,my grand father luckly survived,but he had to sold himself to the rich as kind of slave in orther to feed himself.
If anyone had such a family history,and heard that Japanese said it to be just a "nanjing affair",I think joining an anti-Japan protest is one of the most reasonable thing in the world.And what`s more ,my case is not the minority in China.

I knows many People in Japan also had their closest relatives killed in that war,but I had to say,they are not victim of the mlitary.They might be innocent individualy,but guilty as a group.

oops,I definitely missed my point.

And i think i should say,no one could make any changes in Japan if Japanese did`nt do any thing at all.We just express our anger against Japan`s denial on history and attemp to enter the S.C. before a complete penitence like Germans did.

why did I always missed the "I"?

After reading all these rantankerous guess on Chinese government,I really disappointed if these are the major idea of the Japanese.You really don`t know what happend in China during WWII.Welcome to nanjing,i will show you what Japan did.

And one more addition,I am sure that the number of protesters would leap if our government didn`t do any thing like blocking most communication channel of the protesters.

The UN In-Security Council is really a non-issue.

Any country whom possesses a nuclear armed deterrence, with a capacity to deliver them globally, has a de facto front row seat on every 'security council', UN or other wise.

No formal recognition by some silly In-Security Council is required or need be sought.

I wonder if all the westerners consider the Japanese invasion of China like Chris_B, that it's "just like every other war everwhere at any time in history", This is exactly why the Chinese people are acting everywhere to make themselves heard. No war is "just like very other war" in history, especially not this one, in which thousands of civilians, little kids, women, your great-grand-parents get killed and raped as if their lives were nothing. The Japanese army used everything, gas chambers, biological warfare, the only other historical event comparable in cruelty and loss was the Holocaust. Now imagine the Nazi officials going to the shrines to honour their "war heros" and re-write their history books.

It was true that historically most wars were waged to conquer land, and when we talk about the people who died in them we think "collateral damage", this was not one of them. Let's get this straight before we start with the "but the chinese government killed their own people too" arguement. And no I don't even want to make that kind of comparision.

dotann,
With all due respect, this position is just silly. Can you quantify cruelty in war in some fashion that would allow this ranking system of yours to withstand any sort of meaningful intellectual scrutiny?

The moment anyone says "lets get this straight" in a context like this its sort of obvious they need to think a little more deeply. History has precious few straightaways where we can "get this straight."

And thuggish behavior is thuggish behavior. A sense of victimization has been the propellant for nearly every brute force in history (study, for example, the entire modus operandi of the Roman empire).

Peter - I think dotann has a point, though you are passing in the night...

The thing about Japan's prosecution of WWII is that by that time, most of the western powers had begun to decry some of the worst atrocities of war. I think this had something to do with the mustard gas and other horrible aspects of WWI. Also with Christianity and the resultant views of women, etc. - but I am by no means an expert on military history.

If you look back to Roman times you'll clearly see that rape and pillage were accepted parts of waging war, but by the time of WWII, well, I think we had started to think of ourselves as above that. The Japanese, however, seem to still have had (for the most part) their traditional view of war as a no-holds-barred clash of power... You may be right that the western powers were no slouchers in the atrocities department, but I don't recall episodes (outside of Nazi stuff) of things like taking commoners and hacking them up for sword practice...

Well,I think Japanese is a short-sighted people.If they continue to educate their youth with distorted history,not only those asian neighbors r being hurted,Japan will hurt themselves either. I'm afraid Japan would commit the same crimes as they did in WWII.

In the early days of 1980s,when China was eager to find a foreign car company to invest,they first turned to Japanese car companies.However,those japanese companies r so arrogant and short-sighted that they miss that big chance.And that how Volkswagen became the first foreign car company to invest China,and in the last twenty years look how much Volkswagen earn in China.

Yes,"the BBC reports only 18 schools will use the textbook, as most of the others rejected it as too biased. I think the others amount to 42,000 schools.",as a common Chinese ,I'm not so ignorant to fail to know that truth.But this is because the textbook is just coming out,who knows how many schools in Japan would take it next year??Can you imagine such a textbook be used in just one school in German??????

Tha't true either,some Japanese or Japanese politicians did apologize,but what the Japanese goverment do today(so many things to tell) tell all Chinese that the Japanese never apologize sincerely,never apologize from the bottom of there heart.Maybe that's true ,japanese people is a hypocritical people.

I know some Japanese r kind and know the truth,but sorry to say,the Japanese as a people,I think, is a short-sighted,hypocritical,cruel,cold-blooded people.They a good at find excuses,and,good at killing other nation's people.

1.
"A sense of victimization has been the propellant for nearly every brute force in history "That`s a good point,and that`s also the reason why Japan always blame on "China`s bluff" or "China`s oppress".

2.
Many westerners say that Chinese should get over the past like what is done all over the world,they ignored Japan`s position on their atrocities.
Let`s see http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/日本の戦争謝罪発言一覧
Throughout all these 34 apologies in 33 years,did Japan ever use the regular word "apologize"? The Japanese government even play paronomasia in this aspect,how can Chinese believe that they are really repented for their deed?

3.
Clearly can tell you guys,Chinese government never drive their people to this protese.You can ask anyone of your friends in china.cause holding or joining an uncalled protest is penal crime in China,all these a hundred thousand people who joined this protest was sticking their chin out.
Western media shown their hypocrisy once again,they are calling for a suppress on protesters from a goverment who was blamed on a suppress on protesters years ago.

4.
Traveling the issue to Tiananmen or cultural revolution is totally nonsense,do japan`s atrocity becomes a little bit excusable if China killed their own people due to a horrible wrong policy?Let`s get t divided.

Trevor,
I do understand what you are saying, but I'm less persuaded that we have long behaved in some sense that the Japanese did not. A few examples:
a. Christianity has a mixed track record as a moral break. See for example the persecution of Catholic/protestants in protestant/Catholic areas, the suppression of rival Christian sects (eg the Cathars), the horrific violence against Muslims from the Spanish re-conquest onward. Or, more recently, the disastrous consequences for Catholics of the protestant ascendancy in 19th century Ireland, etc.
b. In more recent history, a full reading of, for instance, the US military's (and yes: the appalingly scary thing is that by and large the US military has indeed been *compartively* speaking a paragon in terms of adhering to some king of "rules of war") suppression of the Indians. Read about things like the Sandy Creek massacre, Wounded Knee, etc. that were pretty much part and parcel to a larger suppression strategy.
c. In war Stalin was nearly as brutal with his own troops as the Germans or Japanese were with the "enemy"
d. The Turkish slaughter of Armenians, USSR of Kulaks, etc. etc.
e. Any of the more recent work on WWI suggesting that it was essentially a political decision to continue the unbelievable and pointless slaughter of WWI. Here Joi's point about collective responsibility becomes interesting. Britain was a democracy of sorts, but what does collective responsibility mean when lower class troops from places like Aus/New Zea were being slaughtered at Gallipoli? (Many US states have a concept of "depraved indifference" homicide)
f. Sherman's march, or the later strategic bombing campaigns by the US airforce that that march presupposed. The whole idea was basically to break the enemy's will to fight by breaking enemy civilian population.
g. moving away from war, the large literature on the appalling famines that accompanied 19th and 20th century European colonialism due to official indifference/profiteering/etc.
h. along that vein, the Belgians in the Congo, French in the rubber plantations of Indochine, etc. etc.
i. The strategies and tactics used to suppress anti-colonial uprisings. Read about the French in N. Africa (in the 1950s), the Dutch in Indonesia (in the 1940s) etc. etc. The only difference with the Japanese was one of scale.
j. the US military suppression of the Philippines independence movement/"kill every tenth..." (I'm not trying to pick on the US, but as an American I know best US military history)
k. the counter revolutionary tactics of the S. Africans, Rohdesians, etc. in sub-Saharan Africa. I have heard one particularly revolting story out of Rhodesia about a black girl who died essentially from septic shock after she was basically sexually assaulted by White (ie children of the European cultural experience) troops using scalding hot food. There was more to the story than that, and her treatment was as awful as anything you will find in one of Iris Chang's works. And it happened in the 1970s. For that matter read a good source about the treatment of the blacks by UK or Boer forces during the Boer war.

I could go on but the alphabet does not have enough letters.

I guess you can say the following in terms of progress. The Romans used crucifixion (one of the most brutal methods of execution ever developed) as a tool of their rule. My understanding is that modern Western forces essentially never used that practice (for that matter, the Romans quit using it at the time of Constantine). I have heard scattered reports that the Japanese did use it during WWII.

But that is about as much moral difference as I can confidently identify.

lamlam: I have been to China. Many times. The idea that the Chinese gov't isn't complicit in this is simply absurd. Have *you* ever read a newspaper (tightly controlled by the state, as you would point out)? It is just hysterical anti-Japanese bile.

And, by the way, I am not on some anti-Chinese crusade here: I loved visiting China, my wife has Chinese ethnic heritage, etc.

And neither am I on some revisionist history relativist binge designed to cloud the waters. For instance, I supported the Iraq war (and still do!). But I'm not going to claim that my country is somehow pure in a way Japan isn't. It is equally absurd for Chinese citizens to do so.

I think Ito san has made some good points, but i think however you did downplay a bit the responsibilities of Japanese during WWII, I am from Hong Kong and I have been living in Japan(among many other countries) for a total of 18months over a period of 4 years. I can get a feel of Japanese culture, what i say might surprise lot of people here, but after living in Korea for 3 months, Egypt for 2 months, Russia for a month, Germany for 3 months, Thailand for a month, Vietnam for a month....etc. I find most of my culture shock in this culturally similar and geographically proximal neighbour- JAPAN. You go to any bookstore, yes, just ANY bookstore, no matter how big KUNOKUNIYA or small it is, or even the KIOSK in the subway, you will never fail to find sick SM novels which i believe cant even be found in adult bookstore elsewhere. from a look at the title of the novels, it talks about bundling, rape, SM teachers, incest with sister, mothers, grandma...etc. the vast availability of literature like this together with other TORTURE and EROTIC culture indicate a big demand for this.

OK, you said the Japanese government was taken over by the military, Japanese citizens were forced to go to war, but dont tell me that they were also forced to rape and torture people for fun. the other year i had a fight with a German friend, I said Nazis was not as evil as Japanese, Nazi set up gas chamber to kill people quick while Japanese rape and kill for fun. (rape and torture for fun are common theme of japanese adult video and novels), She got very angry for she thought Nazis is the most evil. With similar speech, some japanese decided that they are offended too as they dont consider Japanese to be that evil.

There is something not so right about the japanese culture that need to be fixed. Hiding everything inside one's mind and commit suicide once it reached boiling point simply isnt a good way to solve problem.

Here's a quick gloss of Shanghai Boy's post - he copied in a post he did to a Chinese site after explaining this in Japanese...

Isaac, you can't avoid the fact that the Chinese media has completely ignored reality here. If you want to point out that Japanese or Japanese society is thus and so, you absolutely have to touch on how the chinese media and how your political speech has been blocked, otherwise it's just too unfair.

I think that/recognize that the recent series of violent demonstrations in china originate in the deep pain of the past in chinese people. of course, one example is when the "great nippon empire" [what it was called in WWII] committed great massacres of innocent people, and another is from the great leap forward and cultural revolution era, when chinese people harmed each other, with the result that a huge number of people died.

The most important point is that these two things have a very close relationship. But if you do in-depth research into this, you'll likely come to face with some myths about the establishment of some political groups, and this sort of act is very dangerous in mainland china. i trust that you understand what i'm saying here.

under these sorts of restrictions, based on the group consciousness of chinese people, in order to protect oneself you had to express the most intense emotions, so this concept of revenge has passed down through a number of events that have concentrated it through the years.

when people all of a sudden are given freedom, the desire to take revenge is very difficult to control. What's more, young people today, whether japanese or chinese, lack a true understanding of history, with the result that we must watch these violent comedies, using sony camcorders to take these "boycott japanese goods" marches, and destruction of chinese owners' japanese restaurants.

To think back on history: very easy to say, but hard to do.

Hong Kong guy:
I have noticed what you are talking about-the porn in Japan is shocking b/c it does involve so much twisted shit *and* is so out in the open. But are the Japanese really sicker? Have you ever looked at all of the fetish categories at easily accessible American porn sites? Have you ever heard the "legends of Thailand" that you hear from fucked up ex pats? I've watched some German guys in HK try to pick up girls that looked to be about 10. For that matter, I've had to sit through many looooong and upleasant flights back from Japan where I had to listen to some demented asshole countryman of mine talk about the ingenious way he degraded some Japanese hooker (or ordinary Japanese girl) while out on the town. I've heard tons of jokes in Hawaii by Americans and others about what an easy mark Japanese tourist girls are. We might be more discrete about it, but what lies behind Japanese porn is universal human sickness.

Every society has it extremers,speicially for the victimed one.I also heard that Japan`s Chinese embassy received several death threat,someone even drive a car and clash in it ,can i say all Japanese are just the same extreme for this?

Anty-Japaneseism is popular in China,and the news paper you read is just consistent to it,but can you just ascribe it to the Chinese gorvenment?

My previous words mght be harsh,sorry for that,sushi is also my favourite :).

Peter -

Yes, your points are well-taken. I am not really conversant enough to that level of history to say whether Japan has been on the whole worse in terms of wartime behavior...

But from what I do know about western vs. Japanese culture, I have to think that there was a difference at least in attitude, because of the historical place they were in at the time. Japan moved out of feudalism with the Meiji restoration, around 1908(?) I believe, whereas the U.S. was founded with freedom of the press and all sorts of equitable doctrines floating around before 1800. In comparing the U.S. and Japan, the west had at _least_ a few hundred years' head start on moving away from brutal torture and lack of respect towards human life.

It's amazing to read accounts about how, for instance, a British delegation to Japan in the late 1800's or thereabouts had someone walk across the train tracks unaware that a Daimyo was on his way to that station. A samurai who saw him do so cut off his head immediately, as it was a grave offense to cross the path of the Daimyo. I really don't think the Japanese had moved _too_ far beyond these attitudes by the beginning of WWII, and certainly the military buffs hadn't. Maybe they even felt nostalgia for the days before Meiji...

To give another sense of time, Ueshiba Morihei founded the martial art of Aikido after studying other arts including Aiki-Jujutsu. He was born in Taisho and lived until 1969 when he was about 85, I think, so he lived through the whole WWII ramp up and disaster...

Anyway, one of his teachers was Takeda Sokaku. Takeda was one of the last people to give up wearing his katana in public - he was fined for it a number of times, I believe. Once, he was berated by a group of construction workers for wearing his sword - I guess they thought he was a fuddy duddy at that point, maybe in the 20's or 30's... He summarily whipped out his sword and killed most of them...

These are the sorts of things that make you realize that the feudal mentality was still intact in the years leading up to WWII... I think this became further corrupted by the government through state shinto (not real shinto) and a lust for colonial conquests to feel equal to western powers...

Here is a site dedicated to preserve the truth of the Sino-Japanese War (1931-1945). If Japanese and other people really want to understand, to have a look may help.

http://www.sjwar.org/

It's neccessary for Japanese to face the history.\
Just I write a lot about the problems,but my PC....
All right, as a Chinese,I can't forget the history.
I think your opinions are very nice.
Japan should stand in our side to think!!!!!

lamlam wrote @51: 1. A sense of victimization has been the propellant for nearly every brute force in history "That`s a good point,and that`s also the reason why Japan always blame on "China`s bluff" or "China`s oppress".

2. Many westerners say that Chinese should get over the past like what is done all over the world,they ignored Japan`s position on their atrocities. Let`s see http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/日本の戦争謝罪発言一覧 Throughout all these 34 apologies in 33 years,did Japan ever use the regular word "apologize"?