Joi Ito's Web

Joi Ito's conversation with the living web.

I just received this by email from a friend.


Attached is actual night-vision footage shot from a U.S. Apache attack helicopter engaging Iraqis, whom allegedly were attempting to launch a Stinger missile at the Apache. The Apache responds with approximately one-hundred rounds of 30mm cannon fire, which is, ironically, the least powerful weapons system onboard the helicopter. The footage has been "dumbed down" to VHS resolution before conversion to MPEG, since the actual night-vision system on the Apache provides a much sharper and more detailed image.

I realize that the targets were probably a threat to the helicopter and the actions within the rules of engagement, but it is disturbing none the less.

UPDATE: The server load was getting to high so I removed the direct link to the file. You can get it via bit torrent. (4.65 MB mpeg bit torrent file) If you don't know what bit torrent is or don't have it, check out the web page.

UPDATE 2: The video was aired on abc news and is available on their site. via davee

UDPATE 3: Here is a torrent of the full mission.


Part of me thinks that this is what the nightly news should lead with, every single night, so people could get a sense of what war actually is and does.

The rest of me knows all too well that half the audience would probably hoist the beer higher, all the while chortling, "Fuck yeah!"

I posted this on my blog several weeks the person who is hosting the original video also gave me the link to the ENTIRE clip, which is rather large and I believe shows the soldiers firing on the helicopter, though I haven't been able to view it. Full video

Aye aye aye! Hasn't finished downloading but I am already imaging a scene straight out of a Hollywood movie. :(

Adam: Hi! I agree with that part of you. I recently added "EuroNews" to my cable package and they show "real" footage, albeit not the really harsh stuff like this. They have no anchors spinning stories, just reporters reporting. They also have a segment called "No Comment" where they present just footage, sans commentary. Makes you sit back and think hard.

They make some of the stuff available on their website:


"Welcome to the war in Iraq"? You mean "Welcome to war". War is ugly, no matter where it is and when it is.

This is on snopes, no confirmation if it's legit:

Reminds me a bit of that game I blogged at

(The AVI "full version" mentioned above is clearer and a bit longer. It's in DiVx format, I think, so you'll want VLC or MPlayer to open it. VLC worked for me.

Or they could be using their recon helicopters to watch kids bang in the back of a convertible.

I found and watched this video over a week ago and had nightmares about it that night. Even though this is war, and its a fight or die situation, that very last order to shoot the guy injured and squeaming on the ground after the dust settled seems to clearly violates Article 3 of the Geneva Convention, which you can find here:

One person reports that this is probably thermal imaging, not night vision.


I have seen numerous news reports that quote Iraqis as saying something like "someone fired on the American convoy and then after that the Americans just drove around shooting anybody and everybody, innocent or not." The war has created a another population of cold blooded killers. Do you think they will stop killing when they come back home?

The scary thing is that it reminds me of some of the games I've played.

looks like a video game but that's what makes it even scarier...

I saw a more extended version of this video clip on the news a week or so ago. It included some footage of one of the men running into the field and dropping what looked like a weapon and then running back. The audio from the pilots asserted it was a weapon. I’m just not that familiar for me to say definitively. I have to say the footage did not shock me, but it did disturb me.

AG, I tend to agree with you, but my concern is that it won’t really shift that many people's opinion about war. You’re right, there will be a portion of the population who will, “probably hoist the beer higher, all the while chortling, "Fuck yeah!"” There will also be a portion who will find it as a reason to be against the war, but they are probably already against it. The vast majority of whatever percentage of the population is left will probably just keep their heads in the sand. The smallest percentage, who may be riding the fence, may fall on the side against the war. Ultimately though, I think it’s important to strive to improve mankind even though measurable improvement is uncertain or unlikely. Doing so is part of what I think is great about mankind.

BTW, that's correct, it's not night vision, which would be something the pilots'd see through goggles, not part of the targeting system. Not that it really matters, huh?

Hey Boris.

I have a friend in the US Air force that often checks "gun cameras" for intel and he tells me that if we saw some of the gun footage from this most recent war, there would be fewer wars. He specifically describes a scene where a similar helo chops up 20-30 Iraqis in a few seconds. The question then, is why don't we see this in the news? Wouldn't this serve as a deterrent and force us to think first before going to war?

The video didn't disturb me, instead it was like watching a fist fight, intoxicating rush of adrenaline. I think it would be a mistake to show this on prime time news. I prefer ignorance over a nation addicted to adrenaline rush.

I feel about as much moral conflict watching this video as I do watching WWII footage of Nazis being killed.

So a tractor, two visibly empty trucks and three Iraqi laborers are an immanent threat? Was the Stringer ever seen/recovered? Made up threats are unofficial standard practice for occupying authorities. Look at the military murders that have brutalized the foreign press courageous enough to insert themselves into the Palestinian debacle. This may not be the case in what is depicted in this clip, but to take such statements as "they attempted to launch a Stinger missile at us" at face value would be naive. I walked away from viewing this thinking, "Resistance is futile." War is truly terrible.

Grammar should read:

"The action was within the rules of engagement"

Had me confused there.

i put it in my weblog, its amazing, i didn't see in the TV, very disturbing but it is the reality

Anyone have an active link for the longer version? I'd like a little more context, and I've heard that there may be some Iraqi provocation on the longer one?

Anyone have an active link for the longer version? I'd like a little more context, and I've heard that there may be some Iraqi provocation on the longer one?

Is there a bittorrent link to this somewhere?

Joi, can your server handle the load? For the first time, your webpage was slow to load for me. And I've seen many webpages link to this post now.
I'm getting 1.8KB/s right now... gonna try again tomorrow.

The other camp can play this too.
There's plenty of ghastly footage of 9/11 that was not shown in the US.

Joi and others, I get "File Not Found" when I click "4.65 MB mpeg movie" link.... Has the file been moved?

I think it's great that you post this; A lot of times, those footages that get censored are what people should be seeing.

If you don't have BitTorrent, this direct link is still working for me:

I found the most disturbing part to be when the third guy had been injured and was (it looked like) rolling around on the ground. The voices say: "He's wounded" then "Hit him." They then take their time lining up the shot so they can take out both the truck and the wounded man. Cold.

Fuck Yeah!! (said while hoisting beer higher)

It's difficult to imagine what kind of place you have to be in, psychologically,to pull the trigger on a wounded man who is no possible threat to you. I'm not judging, just saying. Besides that, I did see a long version that included the man dropping the "weapon." Considering that he dropped it near something that seemed to be a stopped or disabled piece of farm equipment, and that nobody seemed to be in a hurry to use it or take cover when there was a helicopter hovering over them, I find it difficult to believe that they were really badguys.

Easy for me to say, obviously, since I'm not the one who is going to get shot down.

This was chillling, on multiple levels. As are most of the comments here regading the clip. No one here really knows what the complete situation was. Welcome to any war.

This kind of stuff should be seen on the nightly news here in the US. So what if people celebrate it? It's not like anyone is better off not seeing it.

--So a tractor, two visibly empty trucks and three Iraqi laborers are an immanent threat? Was the Stringer ever seen/recovered? Made up threats are unofficial standard practice for occupying authorities.--

I hear that they were also carrying cute puppies and kittens, and that they were just about to give a hundred thousand dollars to charity before the Apache gunned them down, and that they were also both fervently pro-democracy.

I don't know where I got that info either, but I figure that if somebody else can declare that they're Iraqi laborers, I can pull something out of my ass too.

-Darren MacLennan

This reminds me of something that came out during the Desert Storm campaign. Someone please help me if i get my facts off, I spent some time looking on the web for this to no avail. end disclaimer.
A tank command was in the habbit of recording things that went on durring the war on audo cassettes so that if he was killed his family would have something to remember his last days with. He had just finished with some hostages and was a bit away from them when he tried to contact another tank group that was arriving. because each seperate tank group used different encoding on there radios, he wasnt able to tell them that the iraqi's he had just left were unarmed. The newly arriving tanks shot and killed the Iraqi's while you hear the reaction of the first tank commander on the audio tape.

I heard him give an interview on my NPR station a couple of years ago. i someone could fix up my facts i'd apreciate it. It left me with the same sence of mortality and helplesness for all involved. Sometimes being a human sucks.

This video has haunted me, and left me with a pit in my stomach since i saw it. Thank you for connecting me with some of the reality of what's going on. It's too easy to put out of my mind usually.

I found what looks to be a source for this at:

I caught this video on another website yesterday. Truly disturbing. Yes, I realized that the soldiers were only doing what they were trained and ordered to do, but actually seeing what goes on in these situations isn't pretty.

There is also this clip:

AC130 Gunship Video

Which is possibly more disturbing. Be warned though the clip is 160MB

From the ABC News link: "Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have". Damn! I want to pilot an Apache Gunship! Seriously, what you see is democracy being defended and a group of al-Queda fanatics getting taken out. That's a great video, I'm sending a care package tomorrow. BTW, there's more on this video at Warblogging.

watching it next to that moblog picture of spielberg and your finace(?) was kinda incongrous. like it was a daily of one of his movies in progress or something. so wrong.

what i don't understand is that, well, watching the footage, when you hear the initial gunfire (before the guys on the ground are killed) they are moving around so...leisurely. One guy is almost skipping over to the truck. & then he walks around it so calmly. it doesn't make any sense & it was horrible (like war, right?) Jeezis. The second guy killed, it looks like you can pretty clearly see his HEAD shoot straight up into the air, & one of his LEGS get knocked about 30 ft off to the left. Fuck.

It's hard to say from the video presented whether the person hiding under the 2nd truck is wounded and dragging himself across the road, or is rolling into position to counterattack.
It's particularly hard to say because they are even more grainy and indistinct than the other 2.

Welcome to the ambiguity of war indeed.

I'm not so sure what everyone is so shocked about. What did you think war was like? What do you think Apache helecopters are for? What do you think the guns are made to shoot at?

It's horrible, sure, but actually watching this video is nothing compared the things I imagine about what must go on there. It looks like these guys, guilty or not, were killed quickly.

When I imagine war, I imagine much more horrible deaths, following long minutes, hours, or days of pain and suffereing.

I imagine the mental pain and suffering the soldiers must go through after seeing this on a daily basis, and living this, and taking part in it.

I imagine the suffereing of the citizens of the country, and the soldiers and families of the soldiers we are fighting.

What's more, as horrible as I can imagine it being, I know my imagination doesn't come anywhere close to the horrible reality.

What did you all think war was like that this is so shocking to you?

The most shocking thing to me, is that so few people, who claim to be against the war, have stopped to think what it must be like.

Everyone will be shocked for a few short minutes while they watch this video, and then tomorrow will go back to their normal routines and "I am not responsible for anything bad in the world becaue I don't approve of it" attitudes, sticking your head in the sand, buying your starbucks, applauding your blogs and calling it "activism".

War and violence are - and always will be - a failure of imagination.

War is failure. Violence is failure.

It's a failure to look for alternatives to murder, to employ creative problem solving.

Don't give me that trite crap about the party line. You're failing to think for yourself!

Don't tell me war is ugly, but required. Don't talk to me about "human nature". You're failing to think, to imagine, to progress!

There is always another path. Only you must be willing to find it and apply it.

The only true facets, at least, the only worthwhile facets of "human nature" is the ability to adapt, to create, and to empathize.

If you do not foster and develop these traits, you are merely an unconscious animal, or worse.

Unthinking, uncaring, unfeeling.

Don't talk to me about "But! They hit me first! It's only fair I get to hit back!"

You're a petulant, unevolved child if that's the only solution you can conceive. Evolve!

Don't tell me I'm being simplistic. You're failing to imagine. You're failing. We're all failing.

If it is morally acceptable for anyone to kill any human being anywhere, to maim them, to wound them or otherwise injure them, tell me why it isn't morally acceptable to dose them with a tranquilzer?

To immobilize them with plastics?

Or even better, dose them with an empathogen or entactogen?

What has killing or maiming anyone ever solved except to further divide humanity and to breed further hatred from the friends and family that loved them?

WAR IS FAILURE. It always has been and it always will be, in any and all of its forms.

(I highly recommend the link just above. Step outside the damn box already. It's well past time for us to move forward and address the real issues that confront us as a single species. Hunger. Oppression. Greed. Waste. Abuse. Suffering.)

I still wouldn't go as far as to say that even though this is sickening and gross - why should we be shocked about it because worse things happen in wars?

We humans are funny fellows - watching disturbing images and footages of war makes us say to ourselves that more should be shown to remind us of the atrocities and horrible things we engage ourselves in. Then again, take a look at violence on television - everyone's used to it and it doesn't arouse any feelings in us, because we see so much of it.

PS: Joi, I know you know better than to accept anything less, though I barely know you. Your Godfather demands it, but not just of you, of all of us.

I know you know what is right and true and kind. Follow your heart, your intuition, your inner voice, and be strong. You're not alone.

Keep speaking out. Scream about it if you must. But do not be silenced, especially not by jackals and vultures.

Shame Shame Shame.
While all you comfortable armchair americans try and justify this by reassuring themselves war is hell, the little Iraqi boy, whose arms and legs were blown off, and entire family was killed using your tax dollars, just wants you to look at yourselves and ask,
Why are we in Iraq?

Yeah, war is hell and scary. But thank your lucky stars that you can speak what's on your mind. Saddam would have just cut your tongue out and beaten you.

Listen to yourself, Baglehead. Listen to the violent framing and semantics of your language and perspective.

Fear. It'll eat your mind alive.

You're trying to find justification, and with tenuous assumptions and suppositions at that. That's a natural - but false and unproductive - thing to do when faced with such a moral quandry.

You want to feel good about it. All of us do. But I really doubt any of us do feel good about it. It's really difficult to feel good about war in the first place, but even more so when the real hard facts and truth start to come out.

I doubt that USNB lives in Iraq.

I also strongly doubt that Saddam would have ever risen to power after his 1959 assasination attempt on the then-president of Iraq, General Qassim if it wasn't for the USA and CIA's help.

Or that the CIA set him up to try again. Or that the CIA gave him biological weapons to use against Iran.

The list goes on and on. Cartoons are funny, no?

There isn't moral justification for war in general, but especially not this war.

5,000+ Iraqi civilians.
10,000+ Iraqi combatants.
500+ US enlisted casualities.

On a thinly veiled pretext!

And I'm not even counting Afghanistan. Or whatever is next.

Can someone please explain to me the math or logic used to make 15,000 dead people equal to 5,000* dead people? That's not addition or equation, that's just plain subtraction. (*or less. Maybe more. Do you know? Not that it matters, but what does matter is that the facts and investigations behind 9/11 have been effectively stone walled. We simply don't know yet, and the Bush administration doesn't want us to know at all.)

So now we have 20,000 dead people. With no problems solved. Brilliant rationality.

Baglehead, inspect the framing of your language, the semantics behind it, and seek out the actual facts of the matter. And try to move your mindset to someplace less violent.

The only true revolutions are revolutions of the mind.

"They're coming right at us! Shoot em!"

A previous comment mentioned the first-hand cassette recordings of a US soldier and his unintented recording of the unnecessary, ordered killing of Iraqis. The piece is from a weekly radio show called This American Life ( which is aired on National Public Radio in the States. and you can listen to that particular episode via RealPlayer here:

A brief description can be found here (look at the very bottom of the page):

Another good first-hand soldier account is in this 2003 episode of the same show -- a first-hand account of a US Marine sniper:

I really wish people would mention the oh, 2-3 million people this insane madman killed. Do people think war is an aberration of failure? PLEASE!!!

Imagine what?!? You CANNOT NEGOTIATE WITH EVIL!! This ridiculous notion that things can be worked out all the time is what is going to get us killed.

Makes me want to be a pacifist, which I am definitely not.

The second guy, right before they fire on him, is trying to wave a white flag...

Chomper, who put Saddam into power? The US. Who gave him chemical weapons? The US. Who aided the coup he lead and encouraged him to install the extremist Baathist party and trained them in methods of psychological torture and control? The US! The CIA! Who was shaking Saddam's hand barely more than 15 years ago? Donald Rumsfeld! Who gave Saddam a green light to attack Kuwait, and then turned around and attacked Iraq? Could it be the US?

Here's another notion that ties into my argument about linguistic framing and semantics: EVIL DOESN'T EXIST.

The concept of evil - in the context of the US and its policies - is an outdated Judeo-Christian meme. Sure, there's "bad stuff" that happens. Highly unpleasant things. But the very concept of evil itself is rooted in falliable, faith-based dogma that has no place in logic, rationality, or any real form of problem solving.

Once we get beyond that minor intellectual stumbling block we can actually peel back the layers and see what is really going on beneath.

The ridiculous notion that violence and war are always the correct answer is what actually kills people, and it will eventually kill most or all of us left unchecked.

We are on the verge - if not already past - the point that real war becomes unsurvivable for the majority of us.

This is the real peril of a truly technologically advanced society. Remember the Cold War? Unless we as a planet change course we're going to start thinking of the whole concept of "mutually assured destruction" as the good old days.

And frankly, you're failing to understand what I'm saying. There aren't just two options, IE negotiation or war, there are a nearly infinite number of creative options available.

You do realize that the amount of money the US spends on the military could feed most if not the entire third world for years on end, don't you?

How about we break bread with the whole world and open up a dialog on a nice full stomach for once? How about generosity rather than occupation and theivery? How about respect and understanding instead of mistrust and fear?

To preempt your response, how do you know it wont work? Has anyone tried it?

Why is it that the common man still goes to war for a bunch of greedy, power-seeking and out-of-touch leaders, when it is only the leaders that seem to want to go to war? Let them duke it out! It's not like Bush is some irreplaceble brain trust or something. Maybe it'll knock some sense into our leaders when it is their own blood and sacrifice on the line, rather than us unwashed masses.

We need to come up with alternative conflict resolution methods now before it is too late for all of us.

And no, I'm not a pacifist, but I'm also not a murderer.


And to Joi and others: Terribly sorry about the threadjacking. This has been bugging me senseless for some time, and will likely bug me for longer. The whole thing is so insanely pointless and wasteful I can't even spit straight anymore. Dumb, greedy, downright mean people. Knock it off already! What part of "be nice to each other and share with each other" don't people understand?

Nosaj: What kind of person can look at the mass graves of Iraq, with its thousands murdered for reasons arbitrary and irrational, and declare evil doesn't exist? Evil exists nosaj, and you are a fair representation of it.

Chris Sandvick: Nice. Ad hominem character attack upon my person. That's not nice, and not playing by the rules of debate, and I'm not having it.

Granted, I've set up a straw man in challenging "baglehead" to question the actual subtextual meaning behind term "evil" as it is being used in this context. I was referring to the dogmatic religious overtones that Bush has used in declaring his "axis of evil".

I have not once argued that Saddam Hussein was a good, kind man. I never, ever could. That he was not and is not is irrefutable.

I have never argued that removing him from power - or morever, not installing him in the first place - was an undesirable action.

But how is it you ignore the fact that the US put him there?

And how do you ignore the thousands of civilian deaths directly caused by this war and the hundreds of thousands of indirect civilian deaths due to a decade of sanction-created famine?

How do you ignore the deaths of the Kurds gassed with the weapons the US provided? The very ones you provide as an example of evil? The US is complicit in those deaths.

By your own logic these civilian deaths must be irrational and arbitrary. So, you're telling me two wrongs make a right?

We have a President that has arbitrarily declared war without explicit consent from Congress. This is as far as I know is a historical first.

Why is it we punish a people that have no control over their leader - instead of their leader - and their leader obviously cares not for them?

How is any of this justifiable at all? Has suffering actually decreased for the Iraqi people? I'd say not. Has the number of deaths and carnage increased or decreased? Everything I've read seems to say it has increased, and that the entire region is even more unstable.

I can't honestly be the only one that sees through this madness, this circular logic and moral justification via linguistic framing.

And, how is it you can willfully ignore my closing comments of "What part of "be nice to each other and share with each other" don't people understand" and still deem call me evil? What's evil about not wanting to kill someone? To seek nonviolent conflict resolution?

Granted, perhaps that goes against your Randian Objectivism, but I'll never be in favor of legal imperatives to enforce charity.

If you're an Objectivist, how can you support - I can only assume that you do support from your brief comment - such a crumbling tower of lies and deceptions?

It often feels like I'm the only one with enough sense to simply say "Hi. Oppression, violence, and murder are bad." and be able to leave it at that.

I'm done. Spent. Tired. Frustrated. Mad, sad, and even a little angry.

Let there be peace. Please let there be peace. There's enough sorrow and death in the world without going out and looking for it and making more.

Let there be peace.

By your reasoning nosaJ, evil doesn't exist. I can perhaps accept the argument that there are no truly evil people, but there are most certainly evil acts; acts that rob people of life and dignity and cause destruction beyond the scope of our reasoning and foresight. And even then, I have a hard time swallowing that there are no evil people. History is replete with examples, regardless of the semantic definition of an archaic Christian meme.
For all your talk about thinking outside the box, about utilizing the "nearly infinite number of creative options available", your homily seems to be adhering to the same tautology that you admonish.
The idea that violence and war is what kills people may be true, but people also die because there are individuals who insist on bullying and controlling people for petty power, greed, ignorance and fear.
These people deserve to die, not because it is just or fair, but because the world is a better place with their absence.
That said, I do not support the war in Iraq, and I believe that our leaders should've made steps towards a better solution. I also accept the fact that it was us who put Saddam in power, and that much of the blood on our hands is rightly deserved in a sickly karmic sense.
However, evil, real evil, has and will always exist, regardless of the semiotic label you choose to pin on it.
I admire your idealism and commitment to peace and alternate solutions, but cannot agree with you that violence is never an alternative.
It is a failure of the most heinous kind, one that should inspire loathing and regret, but it sometimes, sadly, necessary.

see the pattern below the 'first vehicle'... looks to be tilling, 'first vehicle' looks to be a tractor towing a discer.

i'm from farm country...

i think these were farmers.

desert farmers stateside do this kind of work at night too. it's just too hot otherwise.

Tribby: I'm no farmer and that's exactly what I thought too... Looks to me like they were there to work on their tractor or something.. their nonchalant movements and even reactions... after the first guy gets blown away, the second guy crouches, frozen.. prolly thinking "wtf?!"

As for the third guy rolling away... imagine you are hiding under a truck, it blows up, you are wounded, possibly on fire... you roll away... this guy does just that, stops and you see him "letting go"...

All this can be debated to death (sic)... The horrors of war, the "evilness" of any aspect at any level of all this. In the end surely we all bemoan the killing of human beings.

i had to chime in on the warblogging archives too. i noted there, that i've been out all night repairing tractors(it's too common)... and every farmer i know stateside carries a ranch rifle on the dashboard of his pickup, some even CAR-15's. but the 'weapon' seen coulda been any number of things including a large stilson's wrench, PTO linkage, anything.

i'm almost positive the 'targets' are farmers.

those are fresh discing marks... i know that much. 'vehicle 1' shot up with 'target 2' is a tractor with some kind of hardfacing in tow. i know that much too.

> The second guy, right before they fire on him, is trying to wave a white flag...

On second viewing, that could also be the guy whipping off the disposable wrapping of an antiaircraft missile.

disposable wrapping?

aren't they factory-sealed on the bizness end so as to be weatherproof? what weapon in particular and i'll track down some info. i know an rpg is pretty resilient and shouldn't need any protective wrap outside it's crate. i mean it's possible but a bit of a reach. it reacts a bit more like cloth, could be a tarp hiding anything, tools, parts. could be insurgents camped out in the middle of a field using three very obvious vehicles as cover? nah, i'd be dug in. far far from anything that large.

i'll go for the simplest, most likely explanation. 'specially with those fresh discing marks. someone was prepping to seed very soon. could they be posing as farmers? sure, provided they were willing to plow everything left of the tractor(and that's a big chunk of plowing) just to look legit. guerilla warfare is hit-and-run. not plow and disguise.

listen, some folks look at a guy dressed in a fur suit and think it's bigfoot too. i'm just telling you what i see. fresh plow marks in a remote desert field, a tractor, two trucks and 3 guys trying to get the tractor running again. from 2 klics out, through flir or nightvision... it could look like piece of artillery and support wagons to someone who wasn't raised near farms. and if yer an apache gunner... ya prolly don't take many chances with something like that. not if yer accustomed to being shot at.

i still say they were farmers... and way outta range for any 'insurgents' to get a shot off from the shit they use. i think if the apache crew would have observed a bit longer, they mighta seen some farming going on. or in the very least, coulda called for some ground-pounders to come in and check.

I love it how all you guys are sitting in your nice comfortable Western homes, downloading porn and slo-mo-ing gonzo videos like this and then second guessing well trained, battle tested soldiers reacting in real time about what is a hostile situation and what is not. "Definitely farmers. Oh, yeah. That shit was totally uncalled for." Well, let me piss in your cornflakes. None of us have any friggin' idea what happened out in the desert that night. There's absolutely no context to that video, no idea as to why the Apache crew determined those guys were hostile. Not even verification that it's from Iraq. So ultimately all we're left with is some gruesome footage and an squiggly underline beneath an idea we probably already had: WAR IS BAD.

And the crackpots who shake their finger at this and say, "Shame on the US. Bad superpower, bad!" but simultaneously say evil is figment of our imaginations? Hey, figure out which side your mouth you want to talk out of and sew the other side shut. If it's not evil to mow down hundreds of thousands of marsh Arabs, gas Kurds, rape, torture and kill Olympic athletes for poor performance, etc., then it's not evil invade the country and put a stop to it. Under that logic, it's not even wrong to steal their oil, though that isn't what's happening, no matter what you suspect.

Yeah, so the US had something to do with Saddam's rise to power. All the more reason to take action to reverse those mistakes, not acquiesce and stand idly by. Or worse yet, as our European "allies" have done, ignore UN sanctions and do whatever can be done to profit from a dictatorial madman. According to some folks posting here, it's wrong to stand by and say nothing about what the US is doing. Well, why is it okay to stand by while other countries oppress their people? Isn't that just as immoral, by your logic?

Stupidity is so irritating. Self-righteiousness even more so.

Nosaj, I checked out the link you posted and looked at the webcomic. And, a few questions occurred to me.

The first part involved a rebellion against the Taliban by Afghani rebels. The U.S. were involved, but were only providing material support and information technology.

But, the interesting thing was this: The rebels were shooting people, blowing things up, and doing all the classic "acts of bloody warfare" that you are decrying.

So, what is the point? That it's bad when we do it, but OK when they do it?

Secondly, the non-violent weapons that both you and the comic tout are unrealistic as hell. Plastic sticky bombs are still in R&D and blanketing an entire country with mini-cams (Let alone the movable robotic types) are too expensive. And, widespread gas warfare (even using the non-toxic kind) is regarded as using weapons of mass destruction, mostly because of it's unpredictability in real life.

In fact, the comic points this out. One of thier own soldiers gets gassed and develops all types of complications.

Is this how you see how the war should be fought?

I support the war because this is the most viable solution available. Not good, because even justified war is ugly. But, Hussein ignored sanctions, diplomats and the U.N. for years. Anything further would have been a retread of Chamberlain's actions during 1939.

Yes, that's a historical reference. No, I won't explain it. You're on the internet already, look it up.

Remo Williams,
The Master of Sinanju

Remo Williams (very nice name, by the way):

I'm glad you checked out the webcomic. I have a gut feeling you are one of the few that that has debated me that has actually read it. I hope I'm wrong though.

No, I don't support either side. Resorting to murder and violence is against the principles I *attempt* to uphold in my life, and they are fine principles to uphold.

There are very few scenarios that I find acceptable that even come close to justifying the grotesqueries and senseless, unselective brutalities of warfare.

No matter how befouled it may be life is a precious thing, and alternatives should be sought before flippantly taking it, even at risk of losing your own.

Again, I feel this is one of the few things that truly defines a human being from a reactionary animal. Three of these differences are empathy, compassion and reason.

Have I never been in any sort of physical conflict with another human being? Nope. I have.

Have I crossed the line into actually physically hurting someone? Not since grade school.

So far I've been lucky enough to resolve the mercifully few physical conflicts I've been in since without resorting to overt violence. However, I'm graced with a physical size and agility that usually quickly limits any desire for an attacker to escalate things any further.

Though quite analogous, this is anecdotal.

The point of the webcomic was simply to offer an alternative mindset among many that a healthy imagination could afford.

About alternative "weapons" in whatever form, without concrete numbers regarding the money, time, and manpower dedicated to searching for them it is a futile exercise to say "Oh, that doesn't work." That's simply defeatism.

Though not a factual statement, I think I can safely say that the Department of Defense spends a vastly greater amount of money, time, and manpower researching lethal weapons than it does non-lethal ones.

Part of that is due to this "culture of violence" of which I and others have alluded to. Mindsets and cultural are terribly important things when it comes to something like research and approval of research, and that begins with the citizens of any given country.

Whatever pervasive culture you are in directly influences your thought processes, your creativity, and so on, and is quite difficult to extract yourself from. I know from personal experience, and I've only just begun to extract myself.

"If the only tool you have is a hammer..."

As for the fictional robotic minicams in that webcomic, I believe in that scenario they are at least partially funded by the users of them.

Regardless, considering the amount of money the US spends on non-recoupable traditional munitions, such a thing (and many other fascinating things, war-related or not) would be trivial (especially if there was profit in it!) to a technologically advanced culture such as ours choose to take that path rather than pouring the majority of our discretionary resources into more convoluted ways of blowing people up.

Given the Solomonic choice, I wouldn't choose to see anyone killed, wounded, gassed, or any such act of violence, oppression or coercion.

Given the truly Solomonic choice, yes, that is how I would prefer to see wars fought.

And again, I'm going to have to step outside of the linguistic framing present in the question "Is this how you see how the war should be fought?" and simply say "War should not be fought." Besides being unpleasant, deadly and ammoral, war is a confounding waste of energy and resources.

But if you read further, these complications are - in my opinion - vastly preferable to the absoluteness of death or maiming by kinetic and explosive energy munitions. However, it is indeed a strange and slippery slope.

Neville Chamberlain is an interesting twist, however. (And no, you don't have to explain it. :) I'm not an illiterate, ahistoric savage.)

We can't really compare post-Reichstag Germany to Iraq, Afghanistan, or the Al Qaeda, or whoever may be next.

There aren't any referential nodes in this scenario to equate to any sort of Chamberlain-esque appeasement.

And since we're going the Godwin's Law route by proxy, there are currently far more easily accessible and accurate comparisons between the current US political situation and idealogy and post-Reichstag Germany than there are between Germany and the Al-Qaeda, Iraq, etc.

Yes, Iraq has been expanionist, but both of the times in question were with the implied or implicit support or even overt/covert funding by the US.

However, Iraq is not nearly as technologically or industrially capable or ideologically unified as Germany was then.

All of this is moot, anyhow. That is not among the stated reasons for the US invasion of Iraq.

(and for Todd W:) To argue that we're simply cleaning up our own mess is the purest horsehockey.

(Most of the rest of your post doesn't deserve the dignity of a reply, being filled with useless rhetoric and ad hominem slander. You leap to too many conclusions and miss the point entirely. It's not an either-or case. It's an all of the above case. By the same argument the US should be attacking dozens of countries, and down this path lies WWIII. And yes, anyone that has stood by and even profited from any dictator is despicable, including Europe or Asia, not excluding the US. Good day, sir.)

If our motives were so pure as to be actually, publicaly "fessing up" to making a mess and cleaning it up, we'd have no trouble getting assistance from the international community. We wouldn't be bathing in deception and secrecy. We wouldn't be issuing no-bid contracts to war profiteers such as Bechtel and The Carlyle Group. (Of which the Bush family, Cheney, Rumsfeld and others at the head of this monstrous quagmire are quite intimately involved with. Look it up. You can find quite trustworthy and established media sources discussing this.)

*If* the evidence could be provided that Hussein was our next Hitler, that Iraq was our next Nazi Germany, that the people of Iraq were even nearly as ideologically fervent and supportive about becoming such a thing, if the argument could even be convincingly made, you'd not find me standing anywhere near any sort of Neville Chamberlains.

That argument has not been convincingly made, and most likely cannot be made.


(Postscript: Do I have all the answers? Certainly not. Do I even have some of the answers? Nope. Do I have some theories and/or hypothesis? Certainly, but who doesn't? Do I think they would lead to further peace, increased understanding and compassion, and increased bounty for more of us? Absolutely. Do I have hope, idealism, and passion? Even yet in the face of overwhelming opposition. All I have left is empathy and intuition, and that's all I'll ever need. Try it some time. You'll be pleasantly suprised, history be damned.)

You must be the change you wish to see in the world.
- Mahatma Gandhi.

The world we have created is a product of our thinking. It cannot be changed without changing our thinking.
- Albert Einstein

Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines.
- R. Buckminster Fuller

It may be long before the law of love will be recognised in international affairs. The machineries of government stand between and hide the hearts of one people from those of another.
- Mahatma Gandhi.

Someday after mastering winds, waves, tides and gravity, we shall harness the energies of love, and then, for the second time in the history of the world, man will discover fire.
- Pierre Teilhard de Chardin


I'm not indiscrimately saying "nonlethal technology does not work, let's forget about it". I'm saying that these weapons and /or concepts are deeply flawed and are therefore impractical.

The plastic "marshmallow" foam, for example, was used in Somalia against rioters and the results were not great.

"Sticky foam has been touted as a wonder technology that will allow violent persons to be subdued without injury. Unfortunately, it has several serious drawbacks for use in large riot situations: It has a short range, and its dispenser is large and bulky. It also is an indiscriminate weapon that will stick to anything or anyone--friend or foe. This creates the unpleasant prospect of having troops spray sticky foam on a front rank of rioters and then having those rioters propelled into physical contact with them by the rear ranks of unfoamed rioters, gluing troops and rioters together. Sticky foam is more suited to police work against the lone fighting drunk than in a mass situation. The potential for getting your own people foamed is too great."

That, by the way, is reprinted from the magazine, Proceedings, which is published by the U.S. Naval Institute. It's written by Lt. Colonel Martin Stanton, U.S. Army. Say what you will about the military, they would not put something in print if they could not back it up.

In the comic, they use a variant of ecstacy against Iraqi troops.

If we sprayed enemy troops with chemicals (nonlethal or not) we would be in violation of several weapon ban treaties. Notably the one we signed in 1992.

And finally, just because people know what a dictator is doing does not mean that they'll stop. The world known for decades about Hussein. And, he knew that we knew. And did'nt care. He just went on lying blandly through his teeth and committing atrocities. So much for the web-cams.

And that is the point that I was making about Chamberlain. With a dictator, diplomacy and appeasement go nowhere fast. It never did with Hitler or Hussein.

Remo Williams,
The Master of Sinanju

P.S. You never answered the first question.

Remo: I did. Second through eigth paragraph, though you may choose to see that answer as a nonanswer. Mu? Perhaps.

"Non-violence and cowardice go ill together. I can imagine a fully armed man to be at heart a coward. Possession of arms implies an element of fear, if not cowardice. But true non-violence is an impossibility without the possession of unadulterated fearlessness."

"Experience convinces me that permanent good can never be the outcome of untruth & violence. Even if my belief is a fond delusion, it will be admitted that it is a fascinating delusion."

-Mahatma Gandhi

pretty sure those were defenseless farmers. you piss in my cornflakes and i'll fuck yer mother at gunpoint.

wanna play junior? i'll give you my address and the airfare to get here.

here's what happened... a coupla hotshot whiteboys hadn't seen a hard target in months and being that they've the IQ of styrofoam, as do all people who take orders for a living, they took their shot.

you call it brave, i say it's chickenshit and they'll burn in hell for it.

'had something to do with bringing saddam to power'

heheeheeee, uh boy... go listen to rush, dittohead.

Want your government back? This is what you will have to deal with is you resist. The video serves as a warning to all.

Remember Waco?

Want your government back? This is what you will have to deal with if you resist. The video serves as a warning to all.

Remember Waco?

nosaj, you are incredibly wrong on so many fronts. Evil is not an outdated notion of Judeo-Christian ideas. Evil does exist. What is Saddam? A misunderstood dictator?

I have to agree with Todd W, we are second guessing a lot of things that are going on. War is bad. No one disputes that, Saddam is bad too, not many dispute that. The problem with the anti-war lobby is they do not put forth a viable plan to deal with dictators and crackpots. Sure, we will negotiate first. But what happens after people start dying? Should we just continue to talk and hope that they will go away?

Evil does exist. It's the notion that it doesn't is what leads people to die needlessly.

uh brad,

stockpiling machine guns and preaching the apocalypse isn't a good way to form a religion. i'd light fire to that any day of the week.

darwinism works... the way i see it, is the earth is better without that kook and the softheads that would follow him. i'm truly sorry for the kids but if you gotta place blame, put it squarely on the heads of the parents who put them in a tinderbox. besides, if ya just gotta do that shit, rent some beach in french guyana and pass the koolaid... otherwise, suffer the consequences.

i got a new hobby fer you... go find bigfoot instead of big brother. both pursuits have the same merit but one gets you in the great outdoors.

I am struck dumb by the insane perversity of a culture that is scandalized by the sight of a woman's breast on national TV but has no objection to watching human beings being torn to into lumps of twitching mush by the 30mm canon of an Apache helicopter.

Nosaj, sorry it took me so long to respond.

OK, two things.

You say that you would not support any violence and quote Gandhi to that effect. I guess my question then becomes, "How would you stop guys like Hussein and the Taliban?".

Gandhi succeeded with his nonviolent protests because, despite Britain's Anglocentrism, Imperialism, and Victorian hypocracy, it was still a society with an essentially moral set of ideals. They had a free press, venues for the downtrodden to speak freely, and methods by which laws could be changed.

Dictatorships don't have these. To a guy like Hussein, "Nonviolent Protest" translates out to "Good, when we shoot them, there's no risk in them shooting back."

If you think I'm wrong, check out the history of the Pol Pot slaughter in Cambodia. Lots of nonviolent Buddhists got killed. Along with about a million and a half of thier countrymen.

Second point.

A few years ago, I was reading "Q Clearance" by Peter Benchley. It's a semi-humorous political thriller. In it, the President of the United States tells the main character about how easy it is for people to dismiss generalities.

"Like "The Hungry'", He says. "Somebody asks you to help the "The Hungry", and you can kiss it off with no problem. Somebody puts a starving kid on your doorstep, that's when it really gets put to you."

During the early part of the war, we had the TV on MSNBC most of the time at where I work. At one point, they had a crew going around New York and asking people what they thought of the war.

The crew stopped in a store that was full of Iraqi expats. They (Just like us, but with a little more impact) were watching the war on TV. The owner of the store, also an Iraqi, got asked about how they felt about the war.

The store owner turned to the crowd of about a dozen people and yelled, "How many of you lost a family member to Saddam Hussein?"

About two-thirds raised a hand, including the store owner.

The guy turns back to the camera crew and says, "That's how we feel about the war."

War, peace, weapons of mass destruction, sanctity of human life, all of these are generalities. A bunch of people saying "Saddam Hussein killed friends and family of mine." is not.

For me, that pretty much settles all arguments.

Remo Williams,
The Master of Sinanju

I've finally watched the long version of the tape, 15 times. Here is what I've noticed :
The pickup truck driver is a woman. You can clearly see her hair as she walks several times back and forth from the pickup truck to the field. She takes a long object from the pickup and runs off into the field and drops it, to the left of where the tractor parks later. Look at the way she runs back and forth several times compared to the way the truck driver does, its clear by the way she runs that she is a female. Then the truck driver also runs into the field and drops a second smaller object to the right of where the tractor will park. Both then go back to the pickup truck and wait around talking while waiting for the tractor to arrive. The male truck driver then walks back and forth between the pickup and the location where he dropped the second object. Then the tractor arrives. The female then runs over to the tractor and she and the tractor driver kiss. The female goes around the tractor while the tractor driver gets out and walks towards the trucks. The female pulls something out of the tractor and begins doing something with it as the tractor driver is being shot. The first kill is witnessed by the truck driver who backs out of the frame and hides behind his truck. The female, unaware of what has just occured, probably due to the noise of the running tractor, continues what she was doing. She is then also shot as she seems to be unrolling something, a hose maybe. Then the truck driver is shot at, then is shot at again as he seems to be crawling, after being probably wounded.
To conclude : two trucks on a road waiting for a tractor to arrive in a field, two objects are dropped off in the field either side of where the tractor will park, something is taken from the tractor. The part of the field just covered by the tractor is clearly visible on the infrared camera proving the tractor was really engaged in agriculral work at the time.

Ever heard of the saying that when the only tool you own is a hammer, all objects look like nails ?

Let me start by saying thank you to Todd for having some common sense. And Tribby, I hope you get a good night's sleep tonight...because one of those guys you think is an idiot with a gun shooting wildly just DIED for you to think that. Alright, here's my two cents...In a war like the one going on in Iraq, if the US lets a few seemingly innocent enemies escape while waiting for the "humane" approach to making sure they don't kill us first, we'd all be dead. Do a favor for your fellow Americans AND especially all the men and women with bullets flying past their heads right now...don't make them out to be cold-blooded killers. They are doing their job - and doing it according to very strict laws, regulations, and guidelines. What you are seeing is part of FOOTAGE...the pilots had the chance to see this situation first-hand and come to the conclusions they made. Let's not jump to conclusions if a) we weren't there, b) we're not trained to do so, and c) we're thinking from a purely "moral" perspective. War ain't pretty, guys...but it's what keeps your butts free to criticize it. (If you disagree w/ me, fine. But don't criticize MY opinions unless you have facts, figures, and academic research to back it up...because I've got those things to back up mine.)

God bless these men and women,who are fighting for your right's and prosperity,and freedom!Put yourself in that Iraqi's shoe's he's fighting for a lost regime,and stupid enough to brandish a weapon in plain site with an apache helicopter hovering nearby.If I was the pilot I would of Kept firing too.Fuck those third world Idiots.In war come's fear and with that come's instinct to live!You flagburning douchebags mean to tell me if you were the pilot your hand wouldn't be glued to firing pin YEAH RIGHT!!now put yourself in the pilots shoe's he's not defeding a lost regime or a defunct dictator,HE'S DEFENDING YOUR FREEDEOM

God Bless our soldiers and I hope they continue to take out any possible hostiles!!!!!! Remember the two captured pilots of an apache, they were shot down by a farmer and his little rifle !!!!!! Kill them all who even think of raising a weapon against us and play it smart don't go out at night if you are in the middle of a war....

Those of you that think the general public should see this are crazy. As son of a Vietnam Vet and in the military myself, you people have no idea what you are talking about. War is terrible, but unfortunatly nessecary, otherwise you would not be free to even state you opinions on this site. Let the military do its job, they are trained for this, it is not for everyone to see. They are doing this for you, risking their lives I might add so you can bitch and complain.

yeah whatever... yer a good patriot.

listen, i said they were farming... that much is sure... i also said it's just not possible to make out if those are weapons. do saddam loyalists and baathists farm land? you bet yer ass they do.

i'm also saying that we shouldn't have gone to war in the first place. but it's too late for that.

i'm not naive enough to claim an unjust war to be 'anti-american'... fact is, since ww2, all our wars have been unjust. we created the problem that is now n. korea... rumsfeld and saddam were at one time, bestest buds... vietnam was wrong from the gulf of tonkin on. we ensconced a blood-thirsty aristede... and we're surprised?

now what? now there's no WMD's... doesn't look like there ever was any past the ones we sold them and thousands of weekend warriors will come home in body bags.... and of the survivors? well, we're creating more terrorists on both sides. remember what timmy mcveigh did? a decorated vet? i do, i jumped piles of glass in downtown okc on that dark day. my ears still ring from it.

i'm not making anyone out to be a cold-blooded killer... george bush jr. is doing fine without my help.

so you wanna tell me how an embargo-blockade, even 40 years of it, if need be, is worse than hard-charging in there with our best and brightest? and chancing a 5 to 10 year bloodbath?

'cause i'd really like to know.

we coulda had bin-laden already... but no, bushy had a family score to settle and all the men and women pushing him saw untapped reserves.

wake up. please wake up.

Hey if you haven't been in the military and have not been in a situation like this, do me a favor..SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! Why don't you people quit trying to be armchair quarterbacks on monday morning second guessing what was done. Some of you say "oh fresh plow marks the must be farmers"..yeah and the Viet Cong didn't pose as farmers either in vietnam. War is a fact of life, conflict will always be there. The reason you get to type your whining, crying, bitching little statements on here is because someone put on a uniform, grabbed a weapon and went and did the dirty work for your country. It's a fact of life..DEAL WITH IT!!!

over 9 min are missing on your video the important part like why they were killed.this is at 2am what farmer plows a field at 2am this area they are in has shoot down 2 helicopters with the same sa7 they are seen running and dumping in the field 15yrds in front of his tractor dont comment untill you have the full storry liberals!!??#%@#$%*

depends on how you see it i guess. i see them as giving me the right to bitch and i am thankful but it'll only make me bitch louder when i smell something fishy. truth is, vietnam was wrong and if it weren't fer people like me bitching and screaming to bring back our boys and girls, we'd still be fighting the 'commies'.

yer the kinda idiot that sees jim caveziel and thinks, 'oh lookee, there's jeebus... this is the biblical truth'

and not...

'this movie is bullshit, jesus couldn't have looked like that'

wake the fuck up.

so call me another 'armchair quarterback' instead of proving dumya isn't a roob of the oil companies and just how saddam was an 'imminent threat'... because that might justify killing some iraqis.

otherwise, yer just another dumb trigger-puller.

i saw the whole video... and you still can't tell if that's a Sa-7 or a whiffle ball bat.

Alright Tribby, how about some damn facts to back up your claims?? (Oh and besides the "fact" that you grew up in farm country and are now a walking catalog of tractors and farm equipment.) Were you there? NO. Do you have the right to bitch? Yes. But do the rest of the world a favor and bitch intelligently. No one likes an uninformed, opinionated schmoe. I am about to join the military. Am I just "another dumb trigger-puller"? NO. I AM A LAWYER. An international lawyer, nonetheless, specializing in UN and UN Security Council legal affairs. You wanna get into it? I'll deal it. How was Sadaam an imminent threat? Go read the damn UN Resolutions. You claim this war was just a family score to settle? Once again, go read the 12 years worth of UN Resolutions. Go read the books about all the human rights violations and international law violations committed by Sadaam. Yeah, you think you're smart because you watched a video and protested the wars. But all I see is a big chicken, unintelligently spewing political jargon he heard on from the left wing media. Type on, Tribby. I'll match you one for one, buddy. And I'm not doing it for me...I'm doing it for the thousands of soldiers you just spit on. OH, and by the way...about the pilots you insulted earlier (and I quote)... "a coupla hotshot whiteboys hadn't seen a hard target in months and being that they've the IQ of styrofoam, as do all people who take orders for a living, they took their shot." THOSE WERE APACHE PILOTS - some of the cream of the crop of the Army. Chopper pilots are usually some of the brightest of the bright - who are officers technically, they GIVE the orders. Go educate yourself. And on behalf of all those who take orders for a living, I feel sorry for your stupidity, I really do.


let's tackle the largest point first.

'imminent threat'...

no gassing of kurds with rumsfeld's gas cited as proof... that one don't hold any water with me, it did for desert storm but not now. those resolutions were as such... UN resolutions, not US resolutions. you of all people should understand the distinction.

why then so imminent? castro had 40+ ICBM's 90 miles off the coast of florida and we didn't invade.

wanna know what else? Osama was in afghanistan. was as in 'past tense'... the airbases in krygistan are there to protect oil. our foreign policy under bush is about oil... whether the dumbass realizes it or not.

oil woulda been a nice benefit had there been any WMD's... but there weren't. it's not my job to enlighten you, shyster. there are plenty interviews from captured iraqi generals saying they didn't have shit.

the spaniards are bailing... next the poles. the coalition is crumbling fast and yer shipping out. tell us about it when you get back. i imagine yer opinion will change. i imagine yer respect for those who served before you, no matter the war, will grow and you'll see the chickenhawks for what they truly are.

human rights violations? please... saddam wouldn't even make the top ten. Uday and kusay after 40 years of blockade you say? look at yer average saudi prince if you need to pick on rights violators. your president won't...because they mean money to him.

i spit on the president, pal for putting saddam, a stationary target, above osama because he thought it would be easy, good fer approval points, pride. he goes blaming tennent and the cia will spill the whole bowl of beans... so who takes the blame? iraqi expats, naturally... they'll tell you the moon is made of cheese if you'll give them back their oil.

left-wing media conspiracies huh? that's a cheap strawman... jews bothering you huh? kill't yer sexy, white jeebus so they did. what about the niggars, white boy? they gettin' uppity too?

wake the fuck up.

For starters, anyone who drops the n-bomb or refers to Jesus as "jeebus" is just plain IGNORANT. Who the hell said anything about the Jews anyway?? Next, I'm a woman, so don't f-ing call me boy. And how do you know I'm white? I'M NOT. You've gotten personal. Politics are politics, but you're stretching the rope, man. I hope you hang yourself with it. I'm obviously not going to educate you b/c you're just that closed-minded, so I'll end it here. There are people out there who agree with me and agree with you, and that's the great thing about this country. But damnit, it with class. Learn some tolerance.

again... you can't educate me. that's my job. you gonna flinch at some bad words or tangents or inferrals obliquely related and balk because of my closing argument? come on counsellor...

pull this one, it plays jingle bells.

this is what's gonna happen... yer gonna become intimately familiar with the terms FUBAR and BOHICA... and yer gonna discover that the military is the worst tool to use in 'nation building'... but you'll see.

so drop the excuses chica... you pick a fight, yer gonna fight by god...

now the aussies are bailing, or will soon, after their elections... so what is it shyster? is the world wrong or are we?

From Geneva Convention: "Members of the armed forces and other persons mentioned in the following Article, who are wounded or sick, shall be respected and protected in all circumstances."
Evidence: The third man (that which recovered under the truck) was wounded: he should be respected and protected in all circumstances.
Crime is crime.

From Geneva Convention: "Members of the armed forces and other persons mentioned in the following Article, who are wounded or sick, shall be respected and protected in all circumstances."
Evidence: The third man (that which recovered under the truck) was wounded: he should be respected and protected in all circumstances.
Crime is crime.

There will always be conflict within the Human Race. It's nature, science and evolution.
The basic principal in life is to survive, breed and reproduce. Just because we are logical biengs, does not me we are "pure." We do what we do, for a reason. Take a look at the animal kingdom, for example. There are wars raging in this world twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. Think about it. Is it any different that a male Lion would kill a female Lion's cubs, just so he can sucsessfully breed with that female Lion? Is it really that different, 30mm Cannons, Teeth, Jaws, Poisons, Toxins and instinct? Weapons. All animals are conflictive. It's life, may the strongest surive. And yes, I am stoned and I do not know what I am talking about. I just had a sudden burst of open-minded thoughts. It's so simple once you've relised the big picture.

European Male suggested:"From Geneva Convention: "Members of the armed forces and other persons mentioned in the following Article, who are wounded or sick, shall be respected and protected in all circumstances."
Evidence: The third man (that which recovered under the truck) was wounded: he should be respected and protected in all circumstances.
Crime is crime."

What are your thoughts on the Iraqis butchering unarmed American civilian contractors in Iraq?

MY thoughts: "contractors" is a euphemism, shithead.

What is there to be said about this clip? These helicopters cost a bomb in the region of 37 million pounds sterling. The pilots were just doing their job.

People are right in saying that it is slightly wrong and unjustified but in no circumstances were Saddam's actions legit or justified. You have to batle evil with equal force otherwise it will just happen again.

Have you not seen the video of the American prisoner being executed that is even worse although arguably he was dead before hand. The whole point of terrorists is their identity is secret so who knows if these Iraqis were terrorists.

Life is harsh and it is survival of the fittest lets just hope that when all is done and dusted that we come off best. Casualties are a part of war surely that was taken into consideration before we went to it shit happens just get on with it.

By the way i am English and i agree that the war was a good idea.

give me a break!!!!!!!!!!

Wow your ignorance of the military is amazing. The helicopter was not getting engaged by small arms fire from the Iraqis. They did not even know it was there...notice the non chalant behavior!! The helicopeter engaged the insurgents because they were about to shoot a missile, rocket or mortar towards a U.S. base. How do I know this.......I WAS THERE, it was right outside camp anaconda, I supported the unit the attacked the enemy. Indirect fire is a huge problem, we would get attacked like this 4 or 5 times a day, sometimes less...sometimes more. These "innocent" Iraqis were most certainly responsible for several U.S. lives.

Funny when you see the whole picture how your perception may change.

Yes, it's funny how people sitting safely in their homes respond to the nature of war. The bottom line is that these dead insurgents will not be able to mortor anymore US soldiers or decapitate anymore civilians. That's all that really matters. Killing the enemy is the mission of the military, and these guys were most definitely the enemy.

thats amasing,if they used that as a recruitment video the armed services would be struggeling to find places for recruits :D

Sorry guys, but this video is of an Apache helicopter killing 4 iraqi farmers.

The repair truck is on the right, the stalled tractor is on the left, which was running but isn't now. Note the white hot vertical exhaust pipe on the tractor.

The apache kills the first guy and the other farmers hide, none have weapons nor go towards the truck to get any weapons.

The helicopter kills them one by one.

Hope yer happy.

racism and hate breeds just that...
yes they were farmers, yes they probly had weapons, yes they probly hate america, with a**holes like you all electing our leaders its no wonder... i hate it too... Religion had nothing to do with 9/11... it was a controlled demolishon preformed by co-vert operations trained in our own country for the financial gain of all those involved(Americans)... now who's getting rich... Weapons manufacturers! A circle of violence perpetuated by a willing flock of ignorant sheep that fund war in the name of some god. God does not condone killing, thats the first commandment you morons!!!

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As part of my cable television package, I ordered EuroNews. Nevermind that the news reported is from a european perspective (a welcome change from the CNN et al), but there are two other major characteristics of this All-News network I... Read More

war from
January 30, 2004 2:44 AM

i watched this clip distributed by and does it have to be "kill or to be killed"? there may be a justification for the military action...but doe that matter? it was chilling to see the bodies disappearing into... Read More

As from Merodeando por la enredadera
January 30, 2004 9:05 AM

Encuentro en el weblog de Joi Ito un espeluznante video de una acción militar en Irak. Se trata de un helicóptero Apache que elimina con fuego de ametralladora a un grupo de iraquís que parece ser que pretendían lanzarle un... Read More

As from Merodeando por la enredadera
January 30, 2004 6:32 PM

Encuentro en el weblog de Joi Ito un espeluznante video de una acción militar en Irak. Se trata de un helicóptero Apache que elimina con fuego de ametralladora a un grupo de iraquís que parece ser que pretendían lanzarle un... Read More

ABC NEWSでアメリカ軍のアパッチ攻撃ヘリがイラク兵を攻撃するナイトビジョン映像を放映した。映像はABC NEWSのサイトで見られる。 これが戦争だ。どんな形であれイラクに派遣される自 Read More

Have you seen the video of the Apache helicopter shooting at bad guys? It's not pretty, but here it is.... Read More

[Update: Only the Bittorrent link will work. I'll mirror this as soon as I escape from work] Have you seen... Read More

Have you seen the video of the Apache helicopter shooting at bad guys? It's not pretty, but here it is... Read More